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Grammar experts to help conclusively resolve grammar arguments?
Thread poster: Mikhail Kropotov
Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: poster deleted contents of post
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 15:07
Member
English to Italian
Free to ask, but... Oct 17, 2018

Tina Vonhof wrote:

Yes, the Chicago Manual of Style has a Q & A section. I get a newsletter regularly with interesting questions they have received and answered. I'm not sure if you have to have bought the manual to make use of that feature (I have). Check it out online.


Anyone can ask a question, but their Q&A page also says: "... we can respond only to questions related to The Chicago Manual of Style.

Because of the volume of mail received, we are not able to answer all questions individually and not all questions can be used."


 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:07
French to English
I'm with Sheila on this one Oct 17, 2018

Mikhail,

The sources where you can submit subjects for discussion are only as good as the individuals who contribute. The first source of reference should be standard and up-to-date sources. They have been compiled and honed by a body of experts in the field who will also mention quirks of usage. They often also describe a current state of play, pointing to current trends in usage and even indicating the direction certain rules are likely to take.

Being able to refer t
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Mikhail,

The sources where you can submit subjects for discussion are only as good as the individuals who contribute. The first source of reference should be standard and up-to-date sources. They have been compiled and honed by a body of experts in the field who will also mention quirks of usage. They often also describe a current state of play, pointing to current trends in usage and even indicating the direction certain rules are likely to take.

Being able to refer to a classic and up-to-date printed (and/or online) source is the way to provide authority for your arguments that is legitimate and credible. Online fora will not carry enough "clout" unless it is an erudite academic council of some sort. As a mere mortal, there is little chance that you will have access to that type of tool!

If your daily questions are like the example you have given, as you say yourself, the answers are likely to be in almost any decent standard grammar work or dictionary. The problem is that native speakers also make mistakes. The other point to bear in mind is the target country. British English and American English do not have the same grammar rules. The way verbs are conjugated and used it one area where the differences can be quite striking.

For the record, in the example you have given us, you are right, your colleague is wrong. A basic grammar book would clear that one. If the colleague does not believe that, then he is stubborn and you are likely to have problems agreeing with him on other occasions too and no erudite collegial body would convince him either!

[Edited at 2018-10-17 15:06 GMT]
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Mikhail Kropotov
John Fossey
MollyRose
 
Tomasso
Tomasso  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:07
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Molto bene Oct 17, 2018

Some actually are experts, but this is only because as a member of the priveleged class, any way they speak is considered correct. That is one of the rules of the language, since the priveleged few actually write the rules of some languages and their own rules say they are correct.

A conference on correct grammar and vocabulary was about to be held in Chile, before the conference was held there was an earthquake, followed by a typhoon and then a fire. The speaker went home and a
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Some actually are experts, but this is only because as a member of the priveleged class, any way they speak is considered correct. That is one of the rules of the language, since the priveleged few actually write the rules of some languages and their own rules say they are correct.

A conference on correct grammar and vocabulary was about to be held in Chile, before the conference was held there was an earthquake, followed by a typhoon and then a fire. The speaker went home and abdicated the throne.

Disculpe no quiero ofender, es la manera de citar un autoridad en anhos pasados.
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The Misha
The Misha
Local time: 10:07
Russian to English
+ ...
And unfortunately, you believe wrong Oct 17, 2018

Inga Petkelyte wrote:

In the world of simplyfying, I believe, "a sofware" is used as a substitute for "a software programme".
Languages are not static, the evolve, and the direction now is simplyfying, if not profanation in some cases.


Maybe in a hundred years, but saying "a software" in modern day English immediately gives you away as a non-native or some poor slob who failed grade school. Mikhail is right, this has nothing to do with "style".


Tom in London
 
Philip Lees
Philip Lees  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 16:07
Greek to English
Otherware Oct 18, 2018

Mikhail, you might try other similar word formations on your colleague and see if he also finds "a hardware", "a kitchenware", etc. acceptable.

If he does, give up.


Tom in London
MollyRose
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:07
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Simplifying Oct 18, 2018

Inga Petkelyte wrote:

In the world of simplyfying, I believe, "a sofware" is used as a substitute for "a software programme".
Languages are not static, the evolve, and the direction now is simplyfying, if not profanation in some cases.


Some Italians now say "un soft". Which is almost as horrible as "a software" (which is always wrong). You don't say "a weather", " a water", "a traffic", etc.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:07
Member (2008)
Italian to English
You mean.... Oct 18, 2018

Tomasso wrote:

Some actually are experts, but this is only because as a member of the priveleged class, any way they speak is considered correct. That is one of the rules of the language, since the priveleged few actually write the rules of some languages and their own rules say they are correct.

A conference on correct grammar and vocabulary was about to be held in Chile, before the conference was held there was an earthquake, followed by a typhoon and then a fire. The speaker went home and abdicated the throne.

Disculpe no quiero ofender, es la manera de citar un autoridad en anhos pasados.


You mean

"....was about to be held in Chile. Before the conference was held...."


 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
portmanteau author's "fishka": two coffees and a tea Oct 18, 2018

Even great poets and writers deliberately use "author's spelling", "author's grammar", and "author's style" as a part of the author's distinctive expression of ideas, conveying such branding and peculiarities.

Or you really consider Pushkin, Esenin, Lewis Carroll (a great mathematician Charles L. Dodgson), Ernest Hemingway, and very many other classical writers to be under-educated and illiterate, no?

Providing people can understand the meaning behind the [over]
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Even great poets and writers deliberately use "author's spelling", "author's grammar", and "author's style" as a part of the author's distinctive expression of ideas, conveying such branding and peculiarities.

Or you really consider Pushkin, Esenin, Lewis Carroll (a great mathematician Charles L. Dodgson), Ernest Hemingway, and very many other classical writers to be under-educated and illiterate, no?

Providing people can understand the meaning behind the [over]simplified wording, they can say whatever they like: now a collocation "a software" is almost as popular as "a [piece of] software", so what?

Indeed, as an editor/proofreader, I would add a tiny footnote just to make sure)
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Thomas T. Frost
Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 14:07
Danish to English
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Rait no need Oct 18, 2018

indeed vee don’t need sbeling gramar punctuachen an sintaks becaus evrybodee kan doo az zey laik

 
Oliver Walter
Oliver Walter  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:07
German to English
+ ...
They are right about software Oct 18, 2018

I can confidently say: "Of course they're right; 'a software' is not correct - it's a mass noun, not countable". It should be, for example, "a piece of software", "a computer program", "an item of software" etc. And, BTW, correct English spellings have been (for at least 50 years) a "computer program" and "a concert programme", "my programme for today" etc. "program" is one of the few American spellings (that differ from British ones for the same thing) that are correct in UK English - in this c... See more
I can confidently say: "Of course they're right; 'a software' is not correct - it's a mass noun, not countable". It should be, for example, "a piece of software", "a computer program", "an item of software" etc. And, BTW, correct English spellings have been (for at least 50 years) a "computer program" and "a concert programme", "my programme for today" etc. "program" is one of the few American spellings (that differ from British ones for the same thing) that are correct in UK English - in this case for computer programs but not other kinds of programme, e.g. for concerts, TV.

Re: "one of" (which I have just written here): It is a common English error to follow "one of" with a verb in the singular which should be plural.
Examples that I have heard on the radio:
"That's one of the things that makes people most angry" (i.e. he said something about "things that makes people most angry") (August 2012);
"One of the things that's interested me over the years is ..." (i.e. "things that has interested me") (May 2015);
"If you are one of those people who finds spelling difficult ..." (i.e. "people who finds spelling difficult") (Sep 2013).
Yes, I have more, but this is not the occasion to show all of them.
Oliver
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Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 15:07
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
Rules... Oct 18, 2018

… are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.

It's about whether you observe the spirit of the law, or are bound by the letter.

I'm with the majority here - 'a software' sounds just daft to me. Quite apart from the rules everyone else has explained.


[Edited at 2018-10-19 10:05 GMT]


Jennifer Forbes
 
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:07
French to English
+ ...
In memoriam
I agree ... Oct 19, 2018

... with Christina, "a software" sounds daft, as does "a training".
How about this "sentence": "I'm accessing a training using a software"? Lovely.


Mikhail Kropotov
 
Colleen Roach, PhD
Colleen Roach, PhD  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:07
French to English
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Using Google: finding sample sentences or phrases Oct 19, 2018

Mikhail

This is something you might want to try: use Google to prove the point you are trying to make about grammar, the usage of a word, etc. Type into Google a phrase that uses the word (or phrase) as you believe it can be used correctly in English. Then show your colleague(s) who are questioning your reasoning what you find. You will, using Google in this way, find many examples that will come up -- usually, unless your usage of a word, or your grammar is actually wrong. When you
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Mikhail

This is something you might want to try: use Google to prove the point you are trying to make about grammar, the usage of a word, etc. Type into Google a phrase that uses the word (or phrase) as you believe it can be used correctly in English. Then show your colleague(s) who are questioning your reasoning what you find. You will, using Google in this way, find many examples that will come up -- usually, unless your usage of a word, or your grammar is actually wrong. When you see what Google brings up you can, with your colleagues, try for a quantitative or qualitative approach. You can, for example, point to 10 examples of sentences (or phrases) brought up by Google that use the word as you have. Or, going for the qualitative approach, you can find, perhaps an article in the New York Times or the Times of London, or some other well written publication (presumably...). You can then say: "Look, here's a major American (or British) publication that uses the word as I am saying it can (or should) be used."

Example: Let's say you write this phrase: "Funding was allocated ..." Someone says "No, you can't use "funding" in that way. You have to use "funds" not "funding" ("funds were allocated...). You then type into the Google search engine "funding was allocated..." and bring up the examples you find and show them to your colleague(s).

Good luck!
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DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
target audience circulation Oct 19, 2018

Indeed, behind the same meaning certain grammar and lex target a specific audience, in a more friendly way. Say, Mikhail (with patronymic) officially vs Misha (among friends) vs Michael and Mike--all meaning the same. For instance:
Two coffees and a tea
obviously assumes "Two [cups or portions of] coffee and a [cup of] tea". So, where is the crime?

I don't like "a piece of (incomplete? a unit? a part of?) software" either, for "a program" or "an application" r
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Indeed, behind the same meaning certain grammar and lex target a specific audience, in a more friendly way. Say, Mikhail (with patronymic) officially vs Misha (among friends) vs Michael and Mike--all meaning the same. For instance:
Two coffees and a tea
obviously assumes "Two [cups or portions of] coffee and a [cup of] tea". So, where is the crime?

I don't like "a piece of (incomplete? a unit? a part of?) software" either, for "a program" or "an application" reads more natural. However, as an editor I'd rather first time insert "[piece of]" part or make a tiny footnote just to make sure.


P.S. They say Ancient Greeks deliberately added a flaw, because of the "only gods are perfect" philosophy. Might it count too?

[Edited at 2018-10-19 12:23 GMT]
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