De manière connue en soi,

English translation: In a manner which is per se known

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)

French term or phrase:	De manière connue en soi,
English translation:	In a manner which is per se known
Entered by:	Bashiqa

16:36 Jan 9, 2021

French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Physics / electrostatic spray

French term or phrase: De manière connue en soi,

Context:
De manière connue en soi, la base 40 comporte, par exemple, au moins une vanne configurée pour obturer ou ouvrir l’un des conduits de la base 40. Au moins une vanne est, par exemple, disposée sur la face de liaison.

Still editing long text and query the translator`s offering for this which is "In a manner known per se". Not sure whether this is appropriate for Patent language.

My own idea along the lines "In a conventional manner".

Any suggestions most welcome.
TIA Chris.

Bashiqa KudoZ activity Questions: 872 (9 open) (9 without valid answers) (99 closed without grading) Answers: 895 France
Local time: 03:50

In a manner which is per se known

Explanation:
Alternative: By means which are per se known.
Explanation: This is standard patent language in the U.S. and U.K.

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Note added at 4 hrs (2021-01-09 21:08:15 GMT)
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Ref (one among many hundreds readily found):
US Patent Application for Method for Knitting Manufactured Articles ...patents.justia.com › patent
3 , the reduction of the active needles is obtained by causing, in a manner which is per se known, for example as provided in WO-02/070799 (see FIGS. 5 and 6 ) ...

Selected response from:

TechLawDC
United States
Local time: 21:50

Grading comment

Thank you for the confirmation
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

as widely documented

Drmanu49

In a manner which is per se known

TechLawDC

In an accepted or agreed manner

Lisa Rosengard

4 -2

As is absolutely known

Francois Boye

As per standard practice

SafeTex

2 -1

As is self-evident, ...

Thomas Miles

Summary of reference entries provided

in a manner known per se

Nathalie Stewart

Discussion entries: 5

chris collister

France

@TechLaw

22:39 Jan 10, 2021

Interesting - but not very. First of all, emotions don't come into it. Secondly, what exactly do you understand by the expression "per se"? Does it add any additional meaning? I agree that accuracy is important: in a translation of one of my own patents, the translator interpreted the crystal in an oscillator as a "liquid crystal", which of course was a gross error. I'm sure we have all read verbatim translations that slavishly follow the source text word for word, and it's not a pretty sight. If you believe that the translation I suggested ("as is generally known") significantly alters the meaning I would like to understand how, though I don't think it's worth getting bogged down on this issue.

TechLawDC

United States

In reply to Mr. Collister below:

21:34 Jan 10, 2021

In reply to Mr. Collister below: Terms of art shouldn't be rewritten to suit one's emotions.
If I were the translation manager of the client and I investigated and found out that you knew that the term of art was "as is known per se" or "as is per se known" and you substituted "as is generally known", I would dock you real money. This would underscore the point that the translator is not supposed to edit terms of art, any more than he/she is permitted to rewrite idioms.

Bashiqa

France

ASKER

@ CC

07:58 Jan 10, 2021

Agree entirely about waste of ink in repeating everything but, we are but mortal souls doing what we are asked to do. This is in fact an editing job so will leave as is.

chris collister

France

22:37 Jan 9, 2021

I have written several patents, striving always to use plain, "ordinary" English. Invariably my text has been transformed by the patent lawyer/agent into patentese, a ghastly and arcane subset of the English language that uses four words where one will do, and comprehensible mainly to other patent lawyers. Personally (and others may disagree), I would translate "de manière connu en soi" simply "as is generally known", implying also that it is "known to those skilled in the art".

Saeed Najmi

Morocco

16:58 Jan 9, 2021

Hi, it seems that the phrase the translator is suggesting is just fine. I've found similar phrases with ''per se'' in a legal dictionary:
''libel per se'' and '' ''negligence per se''
https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?typed=in a manner kn...

Answers

13 mins confidence:

as widely documented

Explanation:
a suggestion

Drmanu49
France
Local time: 03:50
Works in field
Native speaker of:

English,

French
PRO pts in category: 11

37 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): -2

As is absolutely known

Explanation:
en soi veut dire absolument, c.a.d, sans besoin d'expérience humaine

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Note added at 3 hrs (2021-01-09 19:59:27 GMT)
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EN SOI

EN SOIPHILOS. Nature propre et véritable d'une réalité qui existe absolument, indépendamment de la connaissance que nous en avons.
− Spécialement
♦ [Chez les scolastiques] Ce qui caractérise la substance dont la qualité est d'exister en elle-même. Pour les philosophes antérieurs à Kant, principalement chez les scolastiques, l'être en soi, c'est la substance (en latin « ens in se » ou « ens per se ») (Mantoy1971).
♦ [Chez Kant] Ce qui existe absolument, indépendamment de la pensée qui l'appréhende. Synon. noumène*; anton. pour nous*, phénomène*.L'expérience cherchait avec la raison philosophique l'en soi des choses (Proudhonds Lar. 19e-Lar. Lang. fr.).
♦ [Chez Sartre et les existentialistes] Réalité de l'être qui est, mais demeure opaque aux autres et à lui-même. Anton. pour soi.Il est impossible de dire de l'en-soi qu'il est soi. Il est, tout simplement (Sartre, Être et Néant,1943, p. 148).
Prononc. : [ɑ ̃swa]. Étymol. et Hist. Av. 1865 (Proudhon ds Lar. 19e, supra). Subst. masc. composé de en* et de soi* prob. calque de la loc. all. an sich, désignant ce qu'est une chose indépendamment de la connaissance humaine telle qu'elle est constituée par les sensations et la raison (cf. Kant, Kritik der reinen Vernunft, B. 381 ds J. Ritter, Hist. Wörterb. der Philos.). Le subst. correspondant all. est das Ansichsein.

Source: LE Dictionnaire TLFI

Francois Boye
United States
Local time: 21:50
Native speaker of:

French

4 hrs confidence:

In a manner which is per se known

TechLawDC
United States
Local time: 21:50
Works in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 8

Grading comment

Thank you for the confirmation

23 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): -1

As is self-evident, ...

Explanation:
This is a rather daring proposal, but when you rearrange the elements, turn one into 'Anglo-Saxon' and replace another with a synonym, you end up with this!

Disagrees welcome.

Thomas Miles
France
Local time: 03:50
Native speaker of:

English

1 day 7 hrs confidence:

As per standard practice

Explanation:
Hello

I don't do patents as I would hate "patentese" as much as I hate "legalese" but this is how I would have translated it.

SafeTex
France
Local time: 03:50
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 8

Notes to answerer

Asker: In any other type of text I would agree. However, this is a patent and answer as given by TechLawDC is correct in this context.

2 days 3 hrs confidence:

In an accepted or agreed manner

Explanation:
The information explains:
'Base 40 includes at least one configured valve in order to block one of the pipes or ducts in the same base. At least one valve is arranged on its connecting side or face.'

Example sentence(s):

'La base 40 comporte au moins une vanne configurée pour obturer l'un des conduits de la même base. Au moins une vanne est disposée sur le côté ou la face de liaison.'

Lisa Rosengard
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:50
Native speaker of: English

Reference comments

1 hr peer agreement (net): +1

Reference: in a manner known per se

Reference information:
Several standard phrases seem to be used in real existing patents, including "in a manner known per se" which is the most frequently found:

in a manner known per se
in a per se known manner
in known manner
known per se

See KudoZ entry dated 24 Jul 2003:
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-patents/486...

+Multiple examples on patents.google.com:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1213183B1 (French)
https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1213183B1/en (English)

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0803951A1/fr (French)
https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0803951A1/en (English)
Claim [0023]

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1921519B1/fr
Claim [0022]

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0267192A1/en (English only)

Nathalie Stewart
France
Works in field
Native speaker of:

English,

French

Note to reference poster

Asker: Thank you, even after many patents there are always new things/phrases to learn.

Asker: Very impressive CV.

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English translation: In a manner which is per se known

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