Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

modulo

English translation:

modulo / taking into account

Added to glossary by DLyons
Dec 29, 2012 08:31
11 yrs ago
12 viewers *
French term

modulo

French to English Tech/Engineering Computers: Software calculateur de contrôle
Hello,

"Dans ces deux exemples on aura donc obtenu par transformation un programme équivalent, modulo certaines étapes intermédiaires que l’on pourra considérer comme invisibles. "

the second occurence:

Deux programmes seront considérés équivalents s’ils ont les mêmes traces réelles, modulo potentiellement certaines étapes considérées comme invisibles.

I can't help reading it as "modulant"
Your help is appreciated
Thank you
Change log

Dec 31, 2012 10:28: DLyons Created KOG entry

Discussion

Daryo Dec 31, 2012:
The ST is about programming - and the underlying maths. Whoever wrote the ST wasn't into belles-lettres or even less into slang. It seems to me a rather odd method, when dealing with a highly specialised term used in the context where it originated from, to look at the meanings given to it outside of its "native speciality". You wouldn't try to understand the origin of the Universe by watching the "The Big Bang Theory" sitcom?
Especially when it’s not difficult to see why “modulo” was used.
The starting point is one program. This programme responds to some specific inputs by producing desired outputs. You start changing the innards of this program (="les étapes intermédiaires") and you end up with a new program that is "équivalent" i.e. looks the same from the outside – (same inputs will produce the same outputs, but more efficiently – that's the point of the whole exercise, btw).
One variable changing/increasing until the new value is "equivalent" to the initial value “modulo" the changes? Looks to me like a case of "modular arithmetic", only the “variable” is a not number, or a vector, or a matrix but the whole of this programme.
DLyons Dec 29, 2012:
The usage with which I'm familiar is pretty much what I put in my answer below. I'm not sure where/when I first came across it - probably in the '80s. OED has several examples e.g. "Which we choose is entirely arbitrary, but (modulo the assumption that any run covers a line segment) it determines how we answer the question [Jrnl. Philos. 59 776]". That's consistent with either of our answers (which aren't actually very different!).

OED is very authoritative and to be trusted as against almost anybody [modulo Chomsky, Pinker and myself :-) ]
cc in nyc Dec 29, 2012:
@ DLyons Thank you for your response!
Another question... Are aware of the controversy on LanguageHat (and possibly elsewhere as well) regarding "modulo" and its definition in the OED? I extract, freely and at will:
"I note that the OED's (a) and (b) actually define opposite meanings! (a) is the one I'm more used to, being approximately synonymous with 'ignoring' or 'disregarding', ie "not taking into account". Presumably (b) ("taking into account") is a further development by people unaware of the mathematical jargon origins of the word..."
"OED divides the extended senses into two, as you show:
(a) With respect to an equivalence defined by (some feature), disregarding differences indicated by (some unimportant feature); and
(b) taking into account (a particular consideration, aspect, assumption, etc.) [...]
I still think modulo is absurdly unruly, and best avoided. A word that has three senses, so that the need to differentiate by context is an annoying distraction at best (for those who know the senses), and impossible at worst (for many highly competent users of English who, like LH yesterday, have not come across it before)."
http://www.languagehat.com/archives/002875.php
DLyons Dec 29, 2012:
I think I'm the one who is confused. I thought they were referring to "modulo" but it seems to be "module lunaire". "modulo" just occurs later in its usual Math sense.
cc in nyc Dec 29, 2012:
@ DLyons I'm out of space in the peer comment area, so I'm posting my comment / question here... While I greatly appreciate that Larousse recognizes "American" (yay!), I don't see how the "module lunaire" ("traduction de l'américain") pertains to the source text. What did I miss? :confused:

Proposed translations

+1
5 hrs
Selected

modulo / taking into account

It's used the same way in both languages.

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Note added at 5 hrs (2012-12-29 14:13:55 GMT)
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OED: "In extended use. (a) With respect to an equivalence defined by (some feature), disregarding differences indicated by (some unimportant feature); (b) taking into account (a particular consideration, aspect, assumption, etc.)."

I'd use "modulo" to translate the sense "disregarding differences indicated by ...". And "taking into account" for the other sense.

That's what I meant by my answer!

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Note added at 5 hrs (2012-12-29 14:20:28 GMT)
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P.S. Ce dernier syntagme "traduction de l'américain, dont il est malaisé de prévoir le destin" (COLIN 1971) est rejeté des puristes. But English has made more inroads since then!
Note from asker:
Thank you DLyons
I'm sorry I was just going to write my "grading comment" when it sort of submitted itself :S, Thank you very much for all your help
Peer comment(s):

neutral cc in nyc : "modulo": perhaps so, but it's not generally understood in its figurative meaning, at least not in English; "taking into account" won't work (imo it's the other way around) // yes, but not in this context, where it is used figuratively ;-)
23 mins
Have to disagree here - it's commonly used this way in Computer Science. See OED above.
agree Daryo : would definitely agree with "modulo" - but only assuming the intended readership is solidly grounded in maths // "taking into account" is a different option, not a synonym, and doesn't fit.//The OED is not a maths terms dictionary.
1 day 7 hrs
Thanks Daryo. It's not being used in a mathematical sense here. See e.g. example from the OED above.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-1
1 day 12 hrs

closing a full circle (by passing) through

"Dans ces deux exemples on aura donc obtenu par transformation un programme équivalent, modulo certaines étapes intermédiaires que l’on pourra considérer comme invisibles."
=
"... , closing a full circle (by passing) through some intermediary steps/stages that can be considered invisible"

Moving forward to get to the starting point is the basic idea of "modular arithmetic"; the author of the ST is for sure into maths, so the intended meaning of "modulo" would have to be found by association with modulus or modulo as used in maths.

The parallel I see with "modulo" as used in maths is that in the ST you do a "full circle" - you start from one program, go through some "étapes intermédiaires" and then end up with a program that is the same as the first one (at least from the outside - with the same "trace" i.e. producing exactly the same outputs for the same inputs). As the "outputs" are the same, all these "étapes intermédiaires" seem to have no visible effects - are as good as "invisible".

The two programs are "same" modulo the path taken to get to the same point - in this case the "étapes intermédiaires". Similar to: 9am today is the same as 9am yesterday modulo the duration of one full day.


Note from asker:
Thanks Daryo for your help, I really appreciate it
Peer comment(s):

disagree cc in nyc : Interesting, but "modulo" is not about "closing circles." // It's not being used in a mathematical sense here. // Hours demonstrate mod12 arithmetic, seconds mod60 arithmetic, and a digital clock would do just as well. But that's not relevant to the ST.
19 mins
Check again what is "modulo" in maths and programming - modulo as used in slang or as a figure of speech is not relevant here.// How is a clock working - in circles? sure other options are possible, like simply "modulo"
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Reference comments

1 day 11 hrs
Reference:

Modular arithmetic

In mathematics, modular arithmetic (sometimes called clock arithmetic) is a system of arithmetic for integers, where numbers "wrap around" upon reaching a certain value—the modulus.

The Swiss mathematician Leonhard Euler pioneered the modern approach to congruence in about 1750, when he explicitly introduced the idea of congruence modulo a number N.[1]

Modular arithmetic was further advanced by Carl Friedrich Gauss in his book Disquisitiones Arithmeticae, published in 1801.

A familiar use of modular arithmetic is in the 12-hour clock, in which the day is divided into two 12-hour periods. If the time is 7:00 now, then 8 hours later it will be 3:00. Usual addition would suggest that the later time should be 7 + 8 = 15, but this is not the answer because clock time "wraps around" every 12 hours; in 12-hour time, there is no "15 o'clock". Likewise, if the clock starts at 12:00 (noon) and 21 hours elapse, then the time will be 9:00 the next day, rather than 33:00. Since the hour number starts over after it reaches 12, this is arithmetic modulo 12. 12 is congruent not only to 12 itself, but also to 0, so the time called "12:00" could also be called "0:00", since 0 ≡ 12 mod 12.
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2 days 6 hrs
Reference:

Non-arithmetic meaning

Here are some references for modulo in its non-arithmetic meaning.

modulo
2. (Par extension) (Familier) Non prise en compte (utilisé exclusivement comme apposition pour signifier « sans prendre en compte », « en négligeant », « à [ce qui suit] près » ; voir les exemples ci-après).
• On arrive aux mêmes conclusions pour les pays limitrophes modulo la nature des biens exportés.
• En général, quand j’arrive chez moi après une longue marche, je ne suis pas mouillé modulo le temps qu’il a fait.

http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/modulo

[...] the word modulo has acquired several related definitions with time, many of which have become integrated into popular mathematical jargon.
Generally, to say:
• A is the same as B modulo C
means, "more-or-less", as in:
• A and B are the same except for differences accounted for or explained by C.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulo_(jargon)#Example

(Note that in these examples – as in the source text – a number does not follow "modulo.")

The link between the arithmetic and figurative definitions of "modulo" is explained in the following Slang Dictionary entry:

modulo
prep. Except for. An overgeneralization of mathematical terminology; one can consider saying that 4 equals 22 except for the 9s (4 = 22 mod 9). "Well, LISP seems to work okay now, modulo that GC bug." "I feel fine today modulo a slight headache."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/modulo

So we have "non prise en compte" (approximately, "without taking into consideration"] from the French Wiktionary entry, and "more or less" or "except for" from the English Wikipedia and Slang Dictionary entries.

But it turns out that we're revisiting territory that has already been explored previously on the KudoZ website in a thread for "modulo pour les tickets repas." tragedyqueen selected a response from "except for luncheon vouchers" and entered "without taking luncheon vouchers into account" into the glossary while noting, in a Grading Comment, "I found a definition for "modulo" = sans tenir compte de." http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/human_resources/...

Of course, it's also possible to use "modulo" itself in English, just as in the French. In such a case, since no arithmetic base is involved, the text would be informed by the word's figurative meaning. However, such meaning is often unclear even to native English speakers. Witness, for example, the extended discussion of the OED entry on the languagehat website: http://www.languagehat.com/archives/002875.php

Best of luck with the text, Louisa...
And Happy New Year to all. :D
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