Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
une politique policière ou mercantile aliénante
English translation:
a hostile restrictive, profit-making policy
Added to glossary by
kashew
Jan 29, 2013 13:20
11 yrs ago
French term
une politique policière ou mercantile aliénante
French to English
Other
General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
electronic music (
"On peut utiliser science et technologie de façon harmonieuse et personnalisée, alors qu’on les invoque trop souvent comme alibi d’une politique policière ou mercantile aliénante."
My assumption is that policière here doesn't refer to cops. Also looking for a nice way to turn the clause.
The text is explaining that musicians shouldn't allow themselves to be controlled by computer technology in "serious" music. But that technology shouldn't just be rejected.
My assumption is that policière here doesn't refer to cops. Also looking for a nice way to turn the clause.
The text is explaining that musicians shouldn't allow themselves to be controlled by computer technology in "serious" music. But that technology shouldn't just be rejected.
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
Jan 29, 2013 14:30: philgoddard changed "Field" from "Art/Literary" to "Other" , "Field (specific)" from "Music" to "General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters" , "Field (write-in)" from "electronic music (\"serious\" music)" to "electronic music ("
Feb 4, 2013 14:56: kashew Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
2 hrs
Selected
a hostile restrictive, profit-making policy
* policy or stance or attitude
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "I'm returning to the author for input."
2 hrs
alienation, oppression or consumerism
you could, IMO, put AND instead of OR
My impression (Judging from what we have in front of us, and without further context..) is that
it's not exactly a policy which is referred to, but a kind of reprehensible way of acting, in the name of almighty technology.
My stab at the whole sentence would be something like
"Science and technology can be used in a harmonious and individual way, but they are often used as an justification/alibi/rationalisation of alienation, oppression and/or consumerism.
Yes, and I did put alienation as an extra noun (rather than keeping it as an adjective) on purpose!
My impression (Judging from what we have in front of us, and without further context..) is that
it's not exactly a policy which is referred to, but a kind of reprehensible way of acting, in the name of almighty technology.
My stab at the whole sentence would be something like
"Science and technology can be used in a harmonious and individual way, but they are often used as an justification/alibi/rationalisation of alienation, oppression and/or consumerism.
Yes, and I did put alienation as an extra noun (rather than keeping it as an adjective) on purpose!
3 hrs
the alienating effects of law enforcement or consumerist policy
Another idea:
Even if they often serve as alibis for the alienating effects of law enforcement or consumerist policies, science and technology can be used in harmonious and individual ways.
Or, somewhat more forcefully:
Even if they often serve as alibis for the alienating politics of the police state or consumerism, science and technology can be used in harmonious and individual ways.
It really depends on the register of the rest of the document. I imagine "alienating politics" and "police state" could work in a text about electronic music.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2013-01-29 17:27:23 GMT)
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I'm thinking that the opposition in the two clauses between alienation and harmony may be an implicit reference to Marx's theory of alienation. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_alienation :
"Entfremdung (estrangement) is Karl Marx’s theory of alienation, which describes the separation of things that naturally belong together; and the placement of antagonism between things that are properly in harmony. Theoretically, Entfremdung describes the social alienation (estrangement) of people from aspects of their human nature (Gattungswesen, “species-essence”) as a consequence of living in a society stratified into social classes; Marx had earlier expressed the entfremdung theory in the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844 (1927). Philosophically, the Entfremdung theory relies upon The Essence of Christianity (1841), by Ludwig Feuerbach, which argues that the supernatural idea of “God” has alienated the natural characteristics of the human being."
In any case, I'm inclined to try to include "alienation" in the translation, if possible.
Even if they often serve as alibis for the alienating effects of law enforcement or consumerist policies, science and technology can be used in harmonious and individual ways.
Or, somewhat more forcefully:
Even if they often serve as alibis for the alienating politics of the police state or consumerism, science and technology can be used in harmonious and individual ways.
It really depends on the register of the rest of the document. I imagine "alienating politics" and "police state" could work in a text about electronic music.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2013-01-29 17:27:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I'm thinking that the opposition in the two clauses between alienation and harmony may be an implicit reference to Marx's theory of alienation. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_alienation :
"Entfremdung (estrangement) is Karl Marx’s theory of alienation, which describes the separation of things that naturally belong together; and the placement of antagonism between things that are properly in harmony. Theoretically, Entfremdung describes the social alienation (estrangement) of people from aspects of their human nature (Gattungswesen, “species-essence”) as a consequence of living in a society stratified into social classes; Marx had earlier expressed the entfremdung theory in the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844 (1927). Philosophically, the Entfremdung theory relies upon The Essence of Christianity (1841), by Ludwig Feuerbach, which argues that the supernatural idea of “God” has alienated the natural characteristics of the human being."
In any case, I'm inclined to try to include "alienation" in the translation, if possible.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Daryo
: what about Herbert Marcuse? the ST says only "alienating ... ... policies", why add "effects"?
15 hrs
|
Thanks, Daryo. I can see what you mean about effects, and I actually prefer my alternate version with "alienating politics."
Regarding Marcuse: since his work was at least inspired by Marx, I'd tend to locate it in the same general conceptual area.
|
+1
4 hrs
an alienating security or trade policy
There are a few points here:
policiere: I think this word is probably loaded in all sorts of ways, but I think they are generally referring to the security and policing apparatus of the state. These days, this may fall under homeland "security", internet "security", some of which are fairly innocuous and expected policing/security activities and some of which stray into the range of invasive, anti-democratic and other sorts of things that are troubling to liberal-minded (in the personal freedoms and privacy rights sense) sort of person.
Mercantile: calling this "trade policy" is mostly an educated guess. The use of advanced analytical techniques, which are complex and thus expensive to operate, mean that bigger companies are in a better position to exploit their digital-age data management and analysis techniques than their smaller competitors. In my opinion, they are off the mark to make the criticism they are trying to make about trade policy, because it has more to do with scale economies in trade-related knowledge management/production, and not policy which for such an "alienating" digital divide. Rather, the mass of data available is better than the purely private data of ages long gone: the big guys still have an advantage in data management and production, but this is less so in the digital age. In any case, imo the writer views trade policy as a major reason for this form of divide and thus states it this way.
alienating: I think this word should could straight through in the English due to its presence and use in socialist/left wing/ ... or what have you ... writing. It may very well be divisive policy, especially in that there are winners and losers, and entrenched interests makes this a divisive issue. But using alienating helps place it within a certain discourse or way of thinking about social and economic systems, and knowledge production/management in particular. It could also just be alienating in the sense that it turns some people off (they don't like such policies).
OK, so that tells a nice story :) maybe that's where the writer is coming from and what the writer is getting at, in which case "an alienating security or trade policy" might do the trick.
policiere: I think this word is probably loaded in all sorts of ways, but I think they are generally referring to the security and policing apparatus of the state. These days, this may fall under homeland "security", internet "security", some of which are fairly innocuous and expected policing/security activities and some of which stray into the range of invasive, anti-democratic and other sorts of things that are troubling to liberal-minded (in the personal freedoms and privacy rights sense) sort of person.
Mercantile: calling this "trade policy" is mostly an educated guess. The use of advanced analytical techniques, which are complex and thus expensive to operate, mean that bigger companies are in a better position to exploit their digital-age data management and analysis techniques than their smaller competitors. In my opinion, they are off the mark to make the criticism they are trying to make about trade policy, because it has more to do with scale economies in trade-related knowledge management/production, and not policy which for such an "alienating" digital divide. Rather, the mass of data available is better than the purely private data of ages long gone: the big guys still have an advantage in data management and production, but this is less so in the digital age. In any case, imo the writer views trade policy as a major reason for this form of divide and thus states it this way.
alienating: I think this word should could straight through in the English due to its presence and use in socialist/left wing/ ... or what have you ... writing. It may very well be divisive policy, especially in that there are winners and losers, and entrenched interests makes this a divisive issue. But using alienating helps place it within a certain discourse or way of thinking about social and economic systems, and knowledge production/management in particular. It could also just be alienating in the sense that it turns some people off (they don't like such policies).
OK, so that tells a nice story :) maybe that's where the writer is coming from and what the writer is getting at, in which case "an alienating security or trade policy" might do the trick.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Daryo
: not sure if it's the right explanation, but that's what's in the ST.
14 hrs
|
-2
5 hrs
a police policy or commorcial exclusion
This is what I concluded from the above-given text.
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Kim Metzger
: "commorcial" does not exist
11 mins
|
disagree |
Cetacea
: No such thing as a "commorcial exclusion".
1 day 1 hr
|
Discussion
This may be part of a monograph accompanying 200 music CDs, but it sounds more like a reflexion on how science and technology are used/misused in the society in general, not specifically when it comes to composing music.
There are no cops or anarchists anywhere in the 3500 pages. ;-)
something still seems off though ...
So you're saying maybe it's something like "self-discipline" and the second something like "commercialism," where the musician struggles with whether to orient the process towards creative or commercial goals/endeavours?
I am puzzled by this use of policière, but my assumption is that it has more to do "self-policing", perhaps in the sense of self-censorship, or something figurative in that line, than with cops and anarchists. Does that sound plausible to native speakers???
I've also reclassified your question as, despite the context, it's not musical terminology.