Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

une politique policière ou mercantile aliénante

English translation:

a hostile restrictive, profit-making policy

Added to glossary by kashew
Jan 29, 2013 13:20
11 yrs ago
French term

une politique policière ou mercantile aliénante

French to English Other General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters electronic music (
"On peut utiliser science et technologie de façon harmonieuse et personnalisée, alors qu’on les invoque trop souvent comme alibi d’une politique policière ou mercantile aliénante."

My assumption is that policière here doesn't refer to cops. Also looking for a nice way to turn the clause.

The text is explaining that musicians shouldn't allow themselves to be controlled by computer technology in "serious" music. But that technology shouldn't just be rejected.
Change log

Jan 29, 2013 14:30: philgoddard changed "Field" from "Art/Literary" to "Other" , "Field (specific)" from "Music" to "General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters" , "Field (write-in)" from "electronic music (\"serious\" music)" to "electronic music ("

Feb 4, 2013 14:56: kashew Created KOG entry

Discussion

Daryo Jan 30, 2013:
"On peut utiliser science et technologie de façon harmonieuse et personnalisée, alors qu’on les invoque trop souvent comme alibi d’une politique policière ou mercantile aliénante."

This may be part of a monograph accompanying 200 music CDs, but it sounds more like a reflexion on how science and technology are used/misused in the society in general, not specifically when it comes to composing music.
katsy Jan 29, 2013:
Within the limits of what you have told us David, I must say that "self-policing" does not make sense to me. My impression was that these composers tend to reject computer technology by saying it is "oppressive" (the "policière" bit), a kind of representation of commercialism and thus alienating. But that this view is an alibi, a kind of easy excuse for rejecting computer technology in music out of hand...
David Vaughn (asker) Jan 29, 2013:
@Phil The French context is a 90,000 word monograph, which itself is only one of 20, all interrelated. Accompanied by 200 music CDs.

There are no cops or anarchists anywhere in the 3500 pages. ;-)
philgoddard Jan 29, 2013:
Your last post makes sense to you... But it doesn't mean a thing to us. You have the document in front of you; we don't. What's the problem with providing the French context?
nweatherdon Jan 29, 2013:
another crack at it ... an excuse for an alienating self-disciplinary or (highly) commercial approach

something still seems off though ...
nweatherdon Jan 29, 2013:
Nothing is apolitical Especially being explicitly apolitical. But maybe that's not relevant here.

So you're saying maybe it's something like "self-discipline" and the second something like "commercialism," where the musician struggles with whether to orient the process towards creative or commercial goals/endeavours?
David Vaughn (asker) Jan 29, 2013:
policière In another text, my author defines himself as apolitical. THe "forces of order" are nowhere to be found in my text. It is an interview, an oral text, so perhaps the precision is not there. But my assumption is that cops are not at all evoked. My sense is that his mention of economics has to be seen not from a political point of view, but from the POV that he is doing a very obscure sort of music, marginal even in the world of "contemporary classical music" where he works.

I am puzzled by this use of policière, but my assumption is that it has more to do "self-policing", perhaps in the sense of self-censorship, or something figurative in that line, than with cops and anarchists. Does that sound plausible to native speakers???
philgoddard Jan 29, 2013:
You may be right that it's divorced from the rest of the text, but we still need to decide for ourselves. Please could we see the surrounding sentences.
I've also reclassified your question as, despite the context, it's not musical terminology.
David Vaughn (asker) Jan 29, 2013:
@Phil Unfortunately the single sentence is divorced from the rest of the text. Which makes it hard for me to understand as well. Besides what I already mentioned, the author mostly talks about composers who use the latest technological (programming effects) gimmick without really thinking musically.
philgoddard Jan 29, 2013:
Can we have some more context please This single sentence is difficult to understand on its own.

Proposed translations

2 hrs
Selected

a hostile restrictive, profit-making policy

* policy or stance or attitude
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I'm returning to the author for input."
2 hrs

alienation, oppression or consumerism

you could, IMO, put AND instead of OR

My impression (Judging from what we have in front of us, and without further context..) is that
it's not exactly a policy which is referred to, but a kind of reprehensible way of acting, in the name of almighty technology.
My stab at the whole sentence would be something like
"Science and technology can be used in a harmonious and individual way, but they are often used as an justification/alibi/rationalisation of alienation, oppression and/or consumerism.
Yes, and I did put alienation as an extra noun (rather than keeping it as an adjective) on purpose!
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3 hrs

the alienating effects of law enforcement or consumerist policy

Another idea:

Even if they often serve as alibis for the alienating effects of law enforcement or consumerist policies, science and technology can be used in harmonious and individual ways.

Or, somewhat more forcefully:

Even if they often serve as alibis for the alienating politics of the police state or consumerism, science and technology can be used in harmonious and individual ways.

It really depends on the register of the rest of the document. I imagine "alienating politics" and "police state" could work in a text about electronic music.

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Note added at 4 hrs (2013-01-29 17:27:23 GMT)
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I'm thinking that the opposition in the two clauses between alienation and harmony may be an implicit reference to Marx's theory of alienation. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_alienation :

"Entfremdung (estrangement) is Karl Marx’s theory of alienation, which describes the separation of things that naturally belong together; and the placement of antagonism between things that are properly in harmony. Theoretically, Entfremdung describes the social alienation (estrangement) of people from aspects of their human nature (Gattungswesen, “species-essence”) as a consequence of living in a society stratified into social classes; Marx had earlier expressed the entfremdung theory in the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844 (1927). Philosophically, the Entfremdung theory relies upon The Essence of Christianity (1841), by Ludwig Feuerbach, which argues that the supernatural idea of “God” has alienated the natural characteristics of the human being."

In any case, I'm inclined to try to include "alienation" in the translation, if possible.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Daryo : what about Herbert Marcuse? the ST says only "alienating ... ... policies", why add "effects"?
15 hrs
Thanks, Daryo. I can see what you mean about effects, and I actually prefer my alternate version with "alienating politics." Regarding Marcuse: since his work was at least inspired by Marx, I'd tend to locate it in the same general conceptual area.
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+1
4 hrs

an alienating security or trade policy

There are a few points here:

policiere: I think this word is probably loaded in all sorts of ways, but I think they are generally referring to the security and policing apparatus of the state. These days, this may fall under homeland "security", internet "security", some of which are fairly innocuous and expected policing/security activities and some of which stray into the range of invasive, anti-democratic and other sorts of things that are troubling to liberal-minded (in the personal freedoms and privacy rights sense) sort of person.

Mercantile: calling this "trade policy" is mostly an educated guess. The use of advanced analytical techniques, which are complex and thus expensive to operate, mean that bigger companies are in a better position to exploit their digital-age data management and analysis techniques than their smaller competitors. In my opinion, they are off the mark to make the criticism they are trying to make about trade policy, because it has more to do with scale economies in trade-related knowledge management/production, and not policy which for such an "alienating" digital divide. Rather, the mass of data available is better than the purely private data of ages long gone: the big guys still have an advantage in data management and production, but this is less so in the digital age. In any case, imo the writer views trade policy as a major reason for this form of divide and thus states it this way.

alienating: I think this word should could straight through in the English due to its presence and use in socialist/left wing/ ... or what have you ... writing. It may very well be divisive policy, especially in that there are winners and losers, and entrenched interests makes this a divisive issue. But using alienating helps place it within a certain discourse or way of thinking about social and economic systems, and knowledge production/management in particular. It could also just be alienating in the sense that it turns some people off (they don't like such policies).

OK, so that tells a nice story :) maybe that's where the writer is coming from and what the writer is getting at, in which case "an alienating security or trade policy" might do the trick.
Peer comment(s):

agree Daryo : not sure if it's the right explanation, but that's what's in the ST.
14 hrs
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-2
5 hrs

a police policy or commorcial exclusion

This is what I concluded from the above-given text.
Peer comment(s):

disagree Kim Metzger : "commorcial" does not exist
11 mins
disagree Cetacea : No such thing as a "commorcial exclusion".
1 day 1 hr
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