This question was closed without grading. Reason: Answer found elsewhere
Jan 11, 2014 20:54
10 yrs ago
French term

C''est une notion mi-choux, mi-chèvre, mi-loup

French to English Social Sciences Psychology from a text in a book about Eckhart Tolle
This saying is in reference to the ambiguous nature of the definition of the ego. The book from which this excerpt is taken takes a more light-hearted, casual approach to teaching the reader about the ego, so the translation can keep that tone.
Change log

Jan 12, 2014 09:46: writeaway changed "Field" from "Art/Literary" to "Social Sciences"

Jan 12, 2014 16:12: writeaway changed "Field (specific)" from "Poetry & Literature" to "Psychology" , "Field (write-in)" from "(none)" to "from a text on a book about Eckhart Tolle "

Jan 12, 2014 16:13: writeaway changed "Field (write-in)" from "from a text on a book about Eckhart Tolle " to "from a text in a book about Eckhart Tolle "

Jan 13, 2014 13:03: philgoddard changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): Daryo, Evans (X), philgoddard

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Discussion

patrickfor Jan 13, 2014:
@Canovi Merci, cela me semblait clair. Après tout cette idée de "trois moitiés n'est pas si rare comme "figure", c'est le chèvre/choux/loup qui me semblait moins évident... Avant d'avoir trouvé quelque(s) trace(s) ailleurs...
Canovi Jan 13, 2014:
Oh, et puis il y a aussi l'expression "mi chou mi chèvre", qui justifie le choix de la chèvre et du chou.
Canovi Jan 13, 2014:
Bonjour,

quelqu'un m'a signalé cette discussion et j'en profite pour y glisser mon grain de sel...

je suis l'auteur du texte et je tiens à féliciter la ou les personnes qui ont compris qu'il fallait garder 3 moitiés, et que ce qui était important, c'était que ces 3 moitiés étaient incompatibles de nature...

Dans le livre dont est tiré cette phrase ("Eckhart Tolle et l'idiocratie : Découvrez comment un "grand maître spirituel transforme ses lecteurs en débiles catatoniques", en vente sur amazon en kindle) j'expose les différentes significations, incompatibles entre elles, qu'Eckhart Tolle confère au mot "Ego".

Le ton du livre est souvent humoristique. La meilleure traduction (parmi celles proposées ici) à mon avis est "half plant, half animal, half mineral", dans la mesure où on garde le côté "nature" et le côté jeu/devinette, ou sinon une traduction littérale serait bien aussi.
patrickfor Jan 12, 2014:
I was thinking is was important to keep these three halves (08:35) I have now the proof of it as the writer insists on these three halves.

"Ce concept d''ego est apparemment simple, mais réellement ambigu. C''est une notion mi-choux, mi-chèvre, mi-loup. (Oui, je sais, ça fait trois moitiés...l'ego est un concept terriblement équivoque )"
http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/EN/job158769.htm

That closes this part of the discussion I think.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Jan 12, 2014:
I think the choice in the original is to be deliberately ambiguous. I think there is no point seeking to suggest three parts, even though that is a deliberate choice on the part of the writer.

However, we do not have the expression in an extract of the original. That is necessary in order to get to grips with what the writer of the original is getting at. We may be missing some important info here!
Daryo Jan 12, 2014:
a "personal development" type of subject ? ego, super-ego, id = key categories from Freudian psychoanalysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoanalysis.
More likely to be a book about psychology or psychiatry.
patrickfor Jan 12, 2014:
@ Mark 08:18
To convey the idea one has to convey this "concept of 3 halves, not two, in one thing" in the english translation.
One also has to understand why the choice is "wolf+goat,+cabbage" and not something else... I must say I fail to understand that bit.
Marc Quantin Jan 12, 2014:
Agreed, seems to be an unconventional approach to a "personal development" type of subject.
The author is taking liberties with the language and I don't think a literal translation is necessary, as long as the idea is conveyed.
patrickfor Jan 12, 2014:
the only "link" I can think of (an somewhat realted to the riddle) is that the wolf eats the goat, and the goat eats the cabbage... and probably this idea of 3 halves of something has a purpose indeed. Only the context can give a clue.
patrickfor Jan 12, 2014:
that's not making sense in french... Context needed
(1) mi= half so 3 X mi = 1.5??? not making any sense.
(2) I know mi-chèvre, mi-choux , ménager la chèvre et le choux...
(3) yes there is a riddle but irrelevant to the case (because of this "mi")

So that's not related to a specific saying and it should be translated "as is".... IMHO
mi-choux, mi-chèvre, mi-loup - Well known riddle where you have a boat and have to cross a river taking these to the other side, two of them at a time - making sure that the wolf does not eat the goat and the goat does not eat the cabbage.
La chèvre , le chou et le loup - Pragma-soft asbl - http://is.gd/2y6vFe
Paula DeFilippo (asker) Jan 12, 2014:
Thank you all so much for your help. This is an expression in French with which I am not familiar, so I wasn't certain if I was on the right track or not. I agree that the meanings of the words are important. I may have to re-think my translation and make a change that reflects your viewpoint.
Lara Barnett Jan 12, 2014:
Meanings of words Are the words themselves not important? For example the "sweetness" of the choux, the "placidity" of the chevre, and the "fearfulness" or "fierceness" of the loup. I see it as covering the different persopnality characteristics which could be within us all. Am I onto the wrong thing?
For example:
"A notion divided between sweetness, placidity and ferocity".
katsy Jan 11, 2014:
or 'It's animal, vegetable AND mineral'
katsy Jan 11, 2014:
@paula to keep it light-hearted, why not (using your idea, which I like!) say it's part animal, part vegetable, part mineral, with reference to the parlour game (now defunct?) of my childhood
Paula DeFilippo (asker) Jan 11, 2014:
I was wondering if I could use "It's a concept that is part plant, part animal and part mineral". It seems like this is a mixed bag to describe something that refuses to be defined in any one way.
Lorraine Dubuc Jan 11, 2014:
de laquelle il faut en prendre et en laisser?

Proposed translations

23 mins

a diplomatic notion that pleases everyone

a notion that seems to placate/please everyone.....
a people pleasing notion
Hard to take a stand

la chèvre veux le chou -le loup veux la chèvre
Peer comment(s):

agree Lorraine Dubuc : I really like this idea!
1 hr
Thank you Lorraine !
disagree Daryo : the definition of what is the "ego" is aimed at understanding thought processes, either pleasing or displeasing anyone is not part of the equation.
10 hrs
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1 hr

An idea that's part saint, part sinner.

I suggest this as perhaps a way to pose the positive and negative aspects of the "ego" that is consistent with the type opposition posed in the French expression.
Peer comment(s):

neutral patrickfor : this is an expression in french, but not a french expression.
8 hrs
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+5
7 hrs

This notion is neither fish nor fowl

English idiom - Something or someone which is not easily categorized; something or someone that does not rightly belong or fit well in a given group or situation.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/neither_fish_nor_fowl

I would say this fits the equivocal, ambiguous nature of the ego.
Peer comment(s):

neutral patrickfor : and what about the "third" half (mi+mi+mi = one an a half)? //Totally agree but WHAT is the idea?
1 hr
Doesn't need to be literal - the conveyed idea prevails. The idea seems to be that the ego notion is tremendously ambiguous, even more so than what is conveyed via traditional expressions.
agree philgoddard : Good idea.
12 hrs
agree Helen Shiner
13 hrs
agree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : This is an accurate (UK) English rendering of the French, THE standard (UK) English idiom for this one. A literal translation makes no sense here and there is no need to seek to retain three elements.
16 hrs
agree MatthewLaSon : You can also keep the trio: neither fish, nor flesh, nor fowl. Have a nice evening.
1 day 17 hrs
agree Sasa Kalcik
39 days
Something went wrong...
10 hrs

A notion divided between sweetness, placidity and ferocity

As per my discussion entry, I have tried to highlight some of the characteristics of the actual nouns being used.
My idea comes from:

The "sweetness" of the choux;
The "placidity" of the chevre;
The "fearfulness" or "fierceness" of the loup.

I see it as covering the different personalty characteristics which could be within us all. This would probably still stand if the riddle mentioned above is a factor, as such characteristics are maybe even highlighted by the riddle.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Daryo : the point is not in the characteristics of each element of this trio but elsewhere - the incompatibility / antagonism between them; the fact that you just can't have them together in the same place at the same time.
1 day 5 hrs
Something went wrong...
+5
10 hrs
French term (edited): C'est une notion mi-choux, mi-chèvre, mi-loup

As a concept, it's half cabbage, half sheep, half wolf

C''est une notion mi-choux, mi-chèvre, mi-loup
=
As a concept, it's half cabbage, half sheep, half wolf

it's a reference to a classical grain-teaser, a variation on the "river crossing puzzles"; as the author is assuming the reader is familiar with it, I don't see the need to put an explanation instead of the original imagery.

"...
4. Famous riddle: The wolf, the sheep and cabbage

The river-crossing brainteaser is a classic logic riddle. It’s very old and famous, but still tricky.
This riddle is so old that dates back to Charlemagne period. In fact the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire was a big fan of logic and math puzzles and commissioned one of the first puzzle book of the history.The book is called “Problems to Sharpen the Young” and was written with the intent of make math and logical thought more interesting for young people.

The river-crossing brainteaser was one of Charlemagne favourite riddle:

A farmer has to transport from one side of a river to the other a sheep, a wolf and a cabbage, but he has a boat with only two seats. He has to face a logic problem: if left alone together, the goat will eat the cabbage and the wolf will eat the goat.
How can the farmer bring to the other side of the river the sheep, the wolf and the cabbage?
[http://clevergames.wordpress.com/extreme-brain-teasers/]

The "explained version" would be something along the lines of:

As a concept, it's an amalgam / a mishmash of mutually incompatible components.





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Note added at 11 hrs (2014-01-12 07:58:08 GMT)
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sorry
.. a classical brain-teaser ..

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Note added at 13 hrs (2014-01-12 10:43:35 GMT)
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or, to stick to the same animals:

"As a concept, it's half cabbage, half goat, half wolf"
Peer comment(s):

agree patrickfor : to me this is the "safe side" as I believe this wolf/goat/cabbage is nothing "typical french" it should be kept...(Daryo: goat not sheep...)
24 mins
you're right, I missed that; OTOH in one of the EN versions I found it was a sheep - what matters is how they get on (or not) together. Thanks!
agree Virginie Mair : (yes, goat) Thanks! Consistent with my FR-IT postings : http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_italian/social_science_s...
1 hr
Thanks!
agree katsy
1 hr
Thanks!
agree Evans (X) : a game of three halves?
5 hrs
I must admit I'm not sure either way. Thanks!
neutral philgoddard : I don't think people will understand this.
9 hrs
this author is obviously aiming at those who will
neutral MatthewLaSon : The reader would figure it out pretty much with your rendering, but I don't prefer this.
9 hrs
if in the same text there's a reference to "three halves" it doesn't leave much choice
neutral Helen Shiner : EN readers will not know this 'well-known' FR riddle and will therefore not understand the meaning of this formulation./See here: http://www.pragmasoft.be/carnets/calcul/chevre/ Riddles are popular ways of learning logical thinking./Not used in the UK.
10 hrs
it is not a FR riddle; AFAK it's used all over Europe as a textbook example in learning logical thinking.
agree Jean-Claude Gouin
10 hrs
Thanks!
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : If the target reader is not a French speaker, this rendering will remain mysterious.
13 hrs
there's nothing especially French in this riddle; it's "native" to the field of logical thinking, mathematical logic and related fields, in whichever country. I first heard of it in Serbia, not in France.
agree Jocelyne Cuenin : as it's not obvious at first in French either http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8138775/fox-goat-cabbage-...
3 days 7 hrs
pour tout amateur de puzzles, rebus, casse-têtes chinois et autres jeux du même acabit, c'est élémentaire. Merci!
disagree Sasa Kalcik : People would not understand this.
39 days
Something went wrong...
21 hrs

is some (hodgpodgy) jumble of a notion (ego)

Hello,


I hope this helps.
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Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

ménager la chèvre et le chou

Note from asker:
Wow! Thank you so much for giving me this thread. It was extremely helpful.
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree writeaway : http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/job158769.htm
12 hrs
Thank you. The meaning of language is so often found in the histsory of the language.
agree Victoria Britten
12 hrs
Thank you Victoria.
agree B D Finch
1 day 14 hrs
Thank you Barbara.
Something went wrong...
12 hrs
Reference:

Actual context

Voici l''échantillon à traduire :

"Les Grands Sages Illuminés n''ont plus d''ego.
C''est l''une des choses qui les distingue du commun des mortels, qui ne sont pas libérés de leur ego. Ces vils mortels promènent leur ego partout avec eux comme une vache alpine promène la cloche accrochée à son cou. Cet ego qu''ils trimballent les encombre et les attriste, les embarrasse et les afflige, tandis que l''absence d''ego des illuminés fait leur bienheureuse sérénité : ils voyagent léger.
Je viens de vous résumer la doctrine de la plupart des gourous à propos de l''ego.
Comme de juste, Eckhart Tolle prêche la même chose. "L''ego, dit-il, projette une ombre de peur et de souffrance sur tout."
Ce concept d''ego est apparemment simple, mais réellement ambigu.C''est une notion mi-choux, mi-chèvre, mi-loup. (Oui, je sais, ça fait trois moitiés... l''ego est un concept terriblement équivoque.)"
http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/job158769.htm

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Note added at 12 hrs (2014-01-12 09:53:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Traduction d''un court livre sur et contre Eckhart Tolle

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs (2014-01-12 10:06:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Eckhart Tolle, born Ulrich Leonard Tolle on February 16, 1948) is a German-born resident of Canada,[1] best known as the author of The Power of Now and A New Earth. In 2011, he was listed by the Watkins Review as the most spiritually influential person in the world.[2] In 2008, a New York Times writer called Tolle "the most popular spiritual author in the United States."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Victoria Britten
45 mins
agree philgoddard : Thanks!
7 hrs
Imo, it should have been noted it's part of a test for a job.
agree B D Finch : Yes, definitely a breach of the rules by failing to mention this is for a job application! Quite probable that some Answerers might have decided not to contribute had they known.
1 day 2 hrs
or applied for the job themselves.
agree Daryo
1 day 9 hrs
Something went wrong...
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