French term
C''est une notion mi-choux, mi-chèvre, mi-loup
Jan 12, 2014 09:46: writeaway changed "Field" from "Art/Literary" to "Social Sciences"
Jan 12, 2014 16:12: writeaway changed "Field (specific)" from "Poetry & Literature" to "Psychology" , "Field (write-in)" from "(none)" to "from a text on a book about Eckhart Tolle "
Jan 12, 2014 16:13: writeaway changed "Field (write-in)" from "from a text on a book about Eckhart Tolle " to "from a text in a book about Eckhart Tolle "
Jan 13, 2014 13:03: philgoddard changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"
PRO (3): Daryo, Evans (X), philgoddard
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Proposed translations
a diplomatic notion that pleases everyone
a people pleasing notion
Hard to take a stand
la chèvre veux le chou -le loup veux la chèvre
agree |
Lorraine Dubuc
: I really like this idea!
1 hr
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Thank you Lorraine !
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disagree |
Daryo
: the definition of what is the "ego" is aimed at understanding thought processes, either pleasing or displeasing anyone is not part of the equation.
10 hrs
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An idea that's part saint, part sinner.
neutral |
patrickfor
: this is an expression in french, but not a french expression.
8 hrs
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This notion is neither fish nor fowl
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/neither_fish_nor_fowl
I would say this fits the equivocal, ambiguous nature of the ego.
neutral |
patrickfor
: and what about the "third" half (mi+mi+mi = one an a half)?
//Totally agree but WHAT is the idea?
1 hr
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Doesn't need to be literal - the conveyed idea prevails. The idea seems to be that the ego notion is tremendously ambiguous, even more so than what is conveyed via traditional expressions.
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agree |
philgoddard
: Good idea.
12 hrs
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agree |
Helen Shiner
13 hrs
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agree |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: This is an accurate (UK) English rendering of the French, THE standard (UK) English idiom for this one. A literal translation makes no sense here and there is no need to seek to retain three elements.
16 hrs
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agree |
MatthewLaSon
: You can also keep the trio: neither fish, nor flesh, nor fowl. Have a nice evening.
1 day 17 hrs
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agree |
Sasa Kalcik
39 days
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A notion divided between sweetness, placidity and ferocity
My idea comes from:
The "sweetness" of the choux;
The "placidity" of the chevre;
The "fearfulness" or "fierceness" of the loup.
I see it as covering the different personalty characteristics which could be within us all. This would probably still stand if the riddle mentioned above is a factor, as such characteristics are maybe even highlighted by the riddle.
neutral |
Daryo
: the point is not in the characteristics of each element of this trio but elsewhere - the incompatibility / antagonism between them; the fact that you just can't have them together in the same place at the same time.
1 day 5 hrs
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As a concept, it's half cabbage, half sheep, half wolf
=
As a concept, it's half cabbage, half sheep, half wolf
it's a reference to a classical grain-teaser, a variation on the "river crossing puzzles"; as the author is assuming the reader is familiar with it, I don't see the need to put an explanation instead of the original imagery.
"...
4. Famous riddle: The wolf, the sheep and cabbage
The river-crossing brainteaser is a classic logic riddle. It’s very old and famous, but still tricky.
This riddle is so old that dates back to Charlemagne period. In fact the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire was a big fan of logic and math puzzles and commissioned one of the first puzzle book of the history.The book is called “Problems to Sharpen the Young” and was written with the intent of make math and logical thought more interesting for young people.
The river-crossing brainteaser was one of Charlemagne favourite riddle:
A farmer has to transport from one side of a river to the other a sheep, a wolf and a cabbage, but he has a boat with only two seats. He has to face a logic problem: if left alone together, the goat will eat the cabbage and the wolf will eat the goat.
How can the farmer bring to the other side of the river the sheep, the wolf and the cabbage?
[http://clevergames.wordpress.com/extreme-brain-teasers/]
The "explained version" would be something along the lines of:
As a concept, it's an amalgam / a mishmash of mutually incompatible components.
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Note added at 11 hrs (2014-01-12 07:58:08 GMT)
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sorry
.. a classical brain-teaser ..
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Note added at 13 hrs (2014-01-12 10:43:35 GMT)
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or, to stick to the same animals:
"As a concept, it's half cabbage, half goat, half wolf"
agree |
patrickfor
: to me this is the "safe side" as I believe this wolf/goat/cabbage is nothing "typical french" it should be kept...(Daryo: goat not sheep...)
24 mins
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you're right, I missed that; OTOH in one of the EN versions I found it was a sheep - what matters is how they get on (or not) together. Thanks!
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Virginie Mair
: (yes, goat) Thanks! Consistent with my FR-IT postings : http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_italian/social_science_s...
1 hr
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Thanks!
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katsy
1 hr
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Thanks!
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Evans (X)
: a game of three halves?
5 hrs
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I must admit I'm not sure either way. Thanks!
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neutral |
philgoddard
: I don't think people will understand this.
9 hrs
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this author is obviously aiming at those who will
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neutral |
MatthewLaSon
: The reader would figure it out pretty much with your rendering, but I don't prefer this.
9 hrs
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if in the same text there's a reference to "three halves" it doesn't leave much choice
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neutral |
Helen Shiner
: EN readers will not know this 'well-known' FR riddle and will therefore not understand the meaning of this formulation./See here: http://www.pragmasoft.be/carnets/calcul/chevre/ Riddles are popular ways of learning logical thinking./Not used in the UK.
10 hrs
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it is not a FR riddle; AFAK it's used all over Europe as a textbook example in learning logical thinking.
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agree |
Jean-Claude Gouin
10 hrs
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Thanks!
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neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: If the target reader is not a French speaker, this rendering will remain mysterious.
13 hrs
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there's nothing especially French in this riddle; it's "native" to the field of logical thinking, mathematical logic and related fields, in whichever country. I first heard of it in Serbia, not in France.
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Jocelyne Cuenin
: as it's not obvious at first in French either http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8138775/fox-goat-cabbage-...
3 days 7 hrs
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pour tout amateur de puzzles, rebus, casse-têtes chinois et autres jeux du même acabit, c'est élémentaire. Merci!
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disagree |
Sasa Kalcik
: People would not understand this.
39 days
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is some (hodgpodgy) jumble of a notion (ego)
I hope this helps.
Reference comments
ménager la chèvre et le chou
Wow! Thank you so much for giving me this thread. It was extremely helpful. |
agree |
writeaway
: http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/job158769.htm
12 hrs
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Thank you. The meaning of language is so often found in the histsory of the language.
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agree |
Victoria Britten
12 hrs
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Thank you Victoria.
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agree |
B D Finch
1 day 14 hrs
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Thank you Barbara.
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Actual context
"Les Grands Sages Illuminés n''ont plus d''ego.
C''est l''une des choses qui les distingue du commun des mortels, qui ne sont pas libérés de leur ego. Ces vils mortels promènent leur ego partout avec eux comme une vache alpine promène la cloche accrochée à son cou. Cet ego qu''ils trimballent les encombre et les attriste, les embarrasse et les afflige, tandis que l''absence d''ego des illuminés fait leur bienheureuse sérénité : ils voyagent léger.
Je viens de vous résumer la doctrine de la plupart des gourous à propos de l''ego.
Comme de juste, Eckhart Tolle prêche la même chose. "L''ego, dit-il, projette une ombre de peur et de souffrance sur tout."
Ce concept d''ego est apparemment simple, mais réellement ambigu.C''est une notion mi-choux, mi-chèvre, mi-loup. (Oui, je sais, ça fait trois moitiés... l''ego est un concept terriblement équivoque.)"
http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/job158769.htm
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Note added at 12 hrs (2014-01-12 09:53:18 GMT)
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Traduction d''un court livre sur et contre Eckhart Tolle
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Note added at 13 hrs (2014-01-12 10:06:53 GMT)
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Eckhart Tolle, born Ulrich Leonard Tolle on February 16, 1948) is a German-born resident of Canada,[1] best known as the author of The Power of Now and A New Earth. In 2011, he was listed by the Watkins Review as the most spiritually influential person in the world.[2] In 2008, a New York Times writer called Tolle "the most popular spiritual author in the United States."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle
agree |
Victoria Britten
45 mins
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agree |
philgoddard
: Thanks!
7 hrs
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Imo, it should have been noted it's part of a test for a job.
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agree |
B D Finch
: Yes, definitely a breach of the rules by failing to mention this is for a job application! Quite probable that some Answerers might have decided not to contribute had they known.
1 day 2 hrs
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or applied for the job themselves.
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agree |
Daryo
1 day 9 hrs
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Discussion
quelqu'un m'a signalé cette discussion et j'en profite pour y glisser mon grain de sel...
je suis l'auteur du texte et je tiens à féliciter la ou les personnes qui ont compris qu'il fallait garder 3 moitiés, et que ce qui était important, c'était que ces 3 moitiés étaient incompatibles de nature...
Dans le livre dont est tiré cette phrase ("Eckhart Tolle et l'idiocratie : Découvrez comment un "grand maître spirituel transforme ses lecteurs en débiles catatoniques", en vente sur amazon en kindle) j'expose les différentes significations, incompatibles entre elles, qu'Eckhart Tolle confère au mot "Ego".
Le ton du livre est souvent humoristique. La meilleure traduction (parmi celles proposées ici) à mon avis est "half plant, half animal, half mineral", dans la mesure où on garde le côté "nature" et le côté jeu/devinette, ou sinon une traduction littérale serait bien aussi.
"Ce concept d''ego est apparemment simple, mais réellement ambigu. C''est une notion mi-choux, mi-chèvre, mi-loup. (Oui, je sais, ça fait trois moitiés...l'ego est un concept terriblement équivoque )"
http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/EN/job158769.htm
That closes this part of the discussion I think.
However, we do not have the expression in an extract of the original. That is necessary in order to get to grips with what the writer of the original is getting at. We may be missing some important info here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoanalysis.
More likely to be a book about psychology or psychiatry.
To convey the idea one has to convey this "concept of 3 halves, not two, in one thing" in the english translation.
One also has to understand why the choice is "wolf+goat,+cabbage" and not something else... I must say I fail to understand that bit.
The author is taking liberties with the language and I don't think a literal translation is necessary, as long as the idea is conveyed.
(1) mi= half so 3 X mi = 1.5??? not making any sense.
(2) I know mi-chèvre, mi-choux , ménager la chèvre et le choux...
(3) yes there is a riddle but irrelevant to the case (because of this "mi")
So that's not related to a specific saying and it should be translated "as is".... IMHO
La chèvre , le chou et le loup - Pragma-soft asbl - http://is.gd/2y6vFe
For example:
"A notion divided between sweetness, placidity and ferocity".