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Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

supuestos comandantes y un comisario

English translation:

so-called commanders and a captain

Added to glossary by Robert Forstag
Jan 26, 2014 16:14
10 yrs ago
9 viewers *
Spanish term

supuestos comandantes y un comisario

Spanish to English Other Journalism Newspaper editorial regarding drug violence in Ciudad Juárez, Mexico
[I am reposting this query. I am looking for answers with compelling explanations and/or reliable references. This translation is to be published by a major publishing company. Important to get it right. Thank you.]

The sentence below is from a newspaper editorial in the Ciudad Juárez daily El Diario. A full version of the Spanish article can be found (in addition to many other places) here:

http://diario.mx/Local/2010-09-19_cfaade06/

A defective English translation of the article can be found here:

http://www.narconews.com/Issue67/article4209.html

*******

La pancarta contiene un recado amenazador dirigido a supuestos comandantes y un comisario, en el que les advierten que les pasará lo mismo que a nuestro fotógrafo si no regresan una cantidad de dinero.

*******

The particular reference here is to a threatening message conveyed on a placard left wrapped in a blanket at a main intersection in Ciudad Juárez.

The defective English translation referenced above has "alleged federal commanders and a commissioner" for the posted phrase. "Comisario" could also refer to police captain, and it is not clear on the face of it if the "comandantes" in question are indeed federal commanders.

Help appreciated. Thank you.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +3 so-called commanders and a captain

Discussion

Carol Gullidge Jan 26, 2014:
Charles: so-called sounds eminently suitable, in the circumstances and I was just coming to that conclusion myself. Why don't you post that as an answer? Forget about the comandantes and comisario for now, as these are quite separate terms, and ought by rights to be in separate questions. Otherwise, it makes it pretty much impossible to grade fairly and gloss :(
Charles Davis Jan 26, 2014:
"El Tyson" This is the nickname of Díez Saavedra, according to the following:

Víctor Gerardo Garay Cadena, a comisionado in the Federal Police, has been filming his subordinate Bayardo, allegedly because he suspected him of collaborating with the narcos. Bayardo had DEA contacts and was aware of this. Garay has now been accused of collaborating with the Beltrán gang. Bayardo said: "Charly me había comentado que esos videos se los había entregado el comandante Carballido y el comandante Alejandro Díaz Saavedra alias 'El Tyson' y que era una investigación del FBI".
This is all terribly complicated, because it's almost impossible to work out who is honest (if anyone is).
http://elblogdelnarco.blogspot.com.es/2009_01_01_archive.htm...
Charles Davis Jan 26, 2014:
supuestos In principle this might mean that those referred to here as "comandantes" and "comisario" are not really such: that they are criminals and the titles are phony. The other possibility is that it implies that these are police officers with these ranks but that they are bent. I think it's the latter. The message clearly indicates that the narcos have paid these people money and want it back, presumably because the money was a bribe and the officers have double-crossed them, failing to provide them with the promised protection or whatever. So "supuestos" might imply that these people are unworthy of the names of "comandantes" and "comisario", as you might say: that they are not real police officers in the sense that they are in the pockets of the narcos.

Either way, I think "so-called" might be the way to go.
Charles Davis Jan 26, 2014:
The actual "narcomanta" message "Comandante Diaz Saavedra comisario Pavón comandante Arias les va a pasar lo mismo que a los periodistas si no rebotan la copa, regrésenos nuestro dinero, son iguales que el mayor Reséndiz Atte. La Línea"
http://www.cronica.com.mx/notas/2010/532886.html

La Línea is (needless to say) a criminal organisation. But who Díaz Saavedra, Pavón and Arias really are I couldn't say, and this is the crucial point.
James A. Walsh Jan 26, 2014:
@Robert According to this wiki article, "comandante" is a "ranking officer" in the Mexican State Police:

“State police forces operate from precinct stations, called delegaciones with each delegación has an average of 200 police officers attached to it. The ranking officer is known as a comandante, equivalent to a first captain in the military. Most of the remaining personnel hold the ranks of first sergeant, second sergeant, and corporal.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Mexico
________________

I would have also thought "comisario" is "police captain" (probably municipal).

What seems to make sense for "supuestos" here is "particular" or "certain", as in, these "comandantes" know this message is intended for them...
Robert Forstag (asker) Jan 26, 2014:
@Carol Thank you. I had the same feeling as you about the use of "alleged."
Carol Gullidge Jan 26, 2014:
comandante (Mex) can also be a chief of police, amongst other things. But aren't they talking about reporters and photographers here? (Sorry if this is obviously not the case, but I haven't had time to digest the whole article!) So if it were me, I'd ask the client to clarify both terms. With so many valid possibilities, there's no point in guessing.
And I agree that whatever they turn out to be, the word "alleged" seems odd! I wonder whether the grammar is slightly awry, and they're intending to imply that the threatening message is "said to be" or allegedly/reportedly aimed at the intended victims
Robert Forstag (asker) Jan 26, 2014:
@Phil I also don't understand "supuestos" here. And I really want to get "comandantes" and "comisarios" right (in terms of whether reference is to national army (for "comandantes") and local police (for "comisarios") and whether "comisarios" refers to "police captains" or merely "police officers." Not looking for guesses here.

I was hoping Henry Hinds might offer some input on this, but he seems to be on vacation.....
philgoddard Jan 26, 2014:
I would have thought comandantes and comisario are fairly straightforward - but what does "supuestos" mean? In the previous question
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/journalism/5451...
patinba suggested "allleged" - but this doesn't make sense to me.

Proposed translations

+3
6 hrs
Selected

so-called commanders and a captain

This is the best I can do.

I have quoted the actual message in the discussion area. Here it is again:

"Comandante Diaz Saavedra comisario Pavón comandante Arias les va a pasar lo mismo que a los periodistas si no rebotan la copa, regrésenos nuestro dinero, son iguales que el mayor Reséndiz Atte. La Línea"
http://www.cronica.com.mx/notas/2010/532886.html

La Línea is "un grupo de narcotraficantes mexicanos y corruptos funcionarios de Juárez y Chihuahua de la policía estatal que se desempeñan como el brazo armado del cártel del Juárez"
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerra_contra_el_narcotráfico_e...

I have also found and quoted a reference to "el comandante Alejandro Díaz Saavedra alias 'El Tyson'". The source says that Díaz Saavedra and another comandante named Carballido are "incondicionales del comisionado Víctor Gerardo Garay y siempre están realizando labores especiales de él". Garay, in jail accused of protecting the Beltrán cartel, is "comisionado de la Policía Federal". So Díaz Saavedra, alias El Tyson, is clearly a comandante in the Federal Police. It's not certain that the comandante Díaz Saavedra mentioned in the threatening message is the same one, but it seems very likely. If Díaz Saavedra is a fed, it also seems very likely that the other two mentioned in La Línea's message, Pavón and Arias, are also feds.

Be that as it may, I think the appropriate translations for comandante and comisario are commander and captain. Commander is used for comandante in this US government source:

"“Los efectos de la actividad del tráfico de narcóticos son claros en México, a lo largo de las fronteras, en Estados Unidos y en América Central. Sólo en el mes de enero, hemos visto jefes de policía y sus familiares muertos a punta de pistola al otro lado de nuestra frontera, en México: dos comandantes de precinto y un subcomandante en Tijuana el 15 de enero."
http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/spanish/article/2008/02/2...

"The effects of drug trafficking activity are clear in Mexico, along the borders, in the United States and in Central America. Just in the month of January, we have seen police chiefs and their families gunned down just across our border in Mexico: two precinct commanders and one sub-commander in Tijuana on January 15."
Thomas A. Shannon, Assistant Secretary for Western Hemisphere Affairs
Statement Before the House Foreign Relations Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
http://2001-2009.state.gov/p/wha/rls/rm/2008/q1/100163.htm

They are probably Policía Federal officers, but we can't be sure. I can't see any need to include the word "federal". Why not just put "commanders"?

"Captain" is the usual translation of "comisario" (for the US). "Commissioner" is definitely a mistranslation. A commissioner is the head of a police force, and corresponds to "comisionado" (such as Garay, for example). The overall head of the Policía Federal is called the Comisionado General.

Finally, the puzzling word "supuestos". I have suggested "so-called", which seems to me more suitable than "alleged". It may carry the implication that these officers are corrupt, or it may simply indicated that the newspaper doesn't know who they are, but the message calls them comandantes and comisario, and "supuestos" may be simply a way of acknowledging that fact without committing oneself to the truth of the statement.
Peer comment(s):
agree Pablo Julián Davis : Compellingly researched and reasoned. The grammar is curious: if you're right (I think you are), it's "...supuestos (comandantes y un comisario)" but the adjective seems ill-fitting to 'comisario', grammatically speaking. But in terms of sense, it works.
5 hrs
Many thanks, tocayo! The only solution to that problem that occurred to me is something like "three people referred to (in the message) as", but it's a bit too long.
agree James A. Walsh
11 hrs
Many thanks, James ;)
agree Carol Gullidge
15 hrs
Thanks, Carol (and thanks also for the encouragement) :)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you, Charles. Thanks also to everyone else who responded and commented."
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