Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
débiteur notoire
English translation:
known debtor
Added to glossary by
B D Finch
Feb 25, 2015 16:12
9 yrs ago
4 viewers *
French term
débiteur notoire
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
Pleas for Mr X. The bank wants him to repay a loan. He says he never got the sum they are claiming.
"Pour tenter de démontrer que les contestations élevées par Monsieur X seraient non fondées, et qu'elle disposerait d'une créance certaine liquide et exigible, la banque prétend que Monsieur X serait un « débiteur notoire », et conteste l'existence d'une interdépendance entre les relations d'affaires liées dans le cadre du projet brésilien et les contrats de prêts souscrits par Monsieur X auprès de la banque.
...
En effet, Monsieur X ne peut en aucun cas être considéré comme étant un « débiteur notoire ». Si l'on s'en réfère à ses relevés de compte bancaire, entre 2004 et 2008, il a emprunté à la banque YYY la somme de 31.727.600,80 euros, et a remboursé la totalité de cette somme."
"Notoire" is a "notorious" faux-ami, of course. But here, "well-known debtor" (or something similar) seems wrong: the refutation appears not to say that Mr X is not well-known as a debtor, but rather that he does indeed repays as required, perhaps letting him get multiple loans.
So "notoire" does seem to have a pejorative meaning here. But I don't think we'd say "notorious debtor" ... what about "has a bad reputation for repaying his debts" or something along those lines?
"Pour tenter de démontrer que les contestations élevées par Monsieur X seraient non fondées, et qu'elle disposerait d'une créance certaine liquide et exigible, la banque prétend que Monsieur X serait un « débiteur notoire », et conteste l'existence d'une interdépendance entre les relations d'affaires liées dans le cadre du projet brésilien et les contrats de prêts souscrits par Monsieur X auprès de la banque.
...
En effet, Monsieur X ne peut en aucun cas être considéré comme étant un « débiteur notoire ». Si l'on s'en réfère à ses relevés de compte bancaire, entre 2004 et 2008, il a emprunté à la banque YYY la somme de 31.727.600,80 euros, et a remboursé la totalité de cette somme."
"Notoire" is a "notorious" faux-ami, of course. But here, "well-known debtor" (or something similar) seems wrong: the refutation appears not to say that Mr X is not well-known as a debtor, but rather that he does indeed repays as required, perhaps letting him get multiple loans.
So "notoire" does seem to have a pejorative meaning here. But I don't think we'd say "notorious debtor" ... what about "has a bad reputation for repaying his debts" or something along those lines?
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +2 | known debtor |
B D Finch
|
| 2 +2 | notorious debtor |
Nils Andersson
|
| 2 +1 | habitual debtor |
Alison MacG
|
| 3 | known as someone who frequently borrows (large sums of) money |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
|
References
| Example of "notoire" in this context |
AllegroTrans
|
Change log
Mar 11, 2015 15:37: B D Finch Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+2
41 mins
Selected
known debtor
You are, I believe wrong to say "the refutation appears not to say that Mr X is not well-known as a debtor". First of all, it would not be "well-known", as that might imply the knowledge is held by a broader public: "known debtor" is a commonly used expression. "Monsieur X ne peut en aucun cas être considéré comme étant un « débiteur notoire »" is an argument that X should not be considered to be a "known debtor". The bank or the courts may or may not be swayed by this argument.
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Note added at 42 mins (2015-02-25 16:55:11 GMT)
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"Notorious" is, as you note, a faux ami as it is much stronger in English than the French "notoire".
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Note added at 42 mins (2015-02-25 16:55:11 GMT)
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"Notorious" is, as you note, a faux ami as it is much stronger in English than the French "notoire".
Note from asker:
| yes, this is nice, with a nice sort of implicit slur to the phrase. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
AllegroTrans
: or "known to be unable to pay his debts" (see my reference entry)
5 hrs
|
|
Thanks AT
|
|
| agree |
Chakib Roula
14 hrs
|
|
Thanks Chakib
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+2
4 mins
Nils Andersson
United States
United States
Native in English
Works in field
United States
Anything technical or legal! Fast and ac
Native in: Swedish 
, English
Works in: English to Swedish, Swedish to English, German to Swedish, and 6 more.
notorious debtor
It might be that simple
Note from asker:
| Thanks, yes, it *might* be that simple... and (with guillemets) the phrase "notorious debtor" gets 2,430 hits on google (although some are "the Marshalsea, that notorious debtors prison..."). But I'd have to see a reference from one or more legal texts showing that this phrase can be and is used in formal legal language, and with the same emaning as the FR stuff in my post... until then I believe the word is too strong and its register too casual. |
| Whoops... not "used in formal legal language", that was wrong, of course. But used by bailiffs, banks, credit agencies and their ilk. The word still doesn't seem right because it disregards the fact that the EN word refers to people of "bad reputations and widely known in society", whereas "notoire" in FR is much more pedestrian: closer to "habitual". |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
MSI Translat (X)
29 mins
|
| agree |
Yolanda Broad
1 hr
|
| neutral |
philgoddard
: I think this is much too strong a term.
4 hrs
|
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: I would be surprised if this is correct, I don't think it would be used in a legal pleading, and usually the word is a faux-ami
6 hrs
|
+1
1 hr
Alison MacG
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
Patents and related material specialist
Native in: English (Variants: Scottish, UK, British) 
Works in: German to English, French to English, Swedish to English, and 4 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
32
habitual debtor
Suggestion
Reasoning:
[40] Ce type de débiteurs, clairement identifiés par les professionnels, et ce même dans les zones urbaines où les relations entre huissier et débiteur sont beaucoup plus anonymes, fait l’objet d’appellations particulières : on le désigne ainsi parfois par l’expression de « débiteur notoire », « débiteur récidiviste » ou encore « archi-poursuivi », etc.
[Les propos d’une débitrice ayant contracté des dettes de façon plus ou moins continue depuis les années 1970 et qui a été en contact avec plusieurs huissiers depuis cette époque]
http://www.cairn.info/zen.php?ID_ARTICLE=RES_121_0173#re41no...
English example:
Summarily stated, the complaint alleges that the defendant mailed to the plaintiff an envelope with a window-type opening, in which, directly above plaintiff's name and address, appeared the word "Debtor"; that this was done with the intent of conveying the meaning that plaintiff was a confirmed and habitual debtor; that the words on the envelope were read by employees of the defendant as well as employees of the postal system, thereby exposing plaintiff to ridicule and distrust.
https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/1933111/hansen-v-centr...
Compare also this Dutch-English dictionary entry:
wanbetaler defaulter; notoire ~ habitual defaulter
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OHEZru4gZgMC&pg=PA798&lp...
Reasoning:
[40] Ce type de débiteurs, clairement identifiés par les professionnels, et ce même dans les zones urbaines où les relations entre huissier et débiteur sont beaucoup plus anonymes, fait l’objet d’appellations particulières : on le désigne ainsi parfois par l’expression de « débiteur notoire », « débiteur récidiviste » ou encore « archi-poursuivi », etc.
[Les propos d’une débitrice ayant contracté des dettes de façon plus ou moins continue depuis les années 1970 et qui a été en contact avec plusieurs huissiers depuis cette époque]
http://www.cairn.info/zen.php?ID_ARTICLE=RES_121_0173#re41no...
English example:
Summarily stated, the complaint alleges that the defendant mailed to the plaintiff an envelope with a window-type opening, in which, directly above plaintiff's name and address, appeared the word "Debtor"; that this was done with the intent of conveying the meaning that plaintiff was a confirmed and habitual debtor; that the words on the envelope were read by employees of the defendant as well as employees of the postal system, thereby exposing plaintiff to ridicule and distrust.
https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/1933111/hansen-v-centr...
Compare also this Dutch-English dictionary entry:
wanbetaler defaulter; notoire ~ habitual defaulter
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OHEZru4gZgMC&pg=PA798&lp...
Note from asker:
| thanks, yes, interesting... somehow I feel the meaning is somewhere between this and BD Finch's suggestion... |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
philgoddard
: I've been swayed by your good references. I think "defaulter" is better in some ways, because strictly speaking most of us are debtors.
3 hrs
|
| neutral |
B D Finch
: As being a debtor is a not an action, but a condition or state, I don't think that "habitual debtor" is strictly correct and "habitual borrower" would be better as borrowing is an activity.
4 hrs
|
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: this is a very subjective term that I think is unlikely to be used in a legal document - reported speech yes, but in a pleading no
5 hrs
|
7 hrs
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Works in field
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English
Works in: French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
451
known as someone who frequently borrows (large sums of) money
This may be way too long. I agree with BD Finch's reading. However, although my suggestion is lengthy, I see no reason to tie a translator's hands to two words on this one. A much more natural rendering can be obtained in a more explanatory format. It can be tweaked to fit each time "débiteur notoire" appears in the original and avoid ambiguity.
I had thought of using "has a reputation for borrowing, but that already has negative connotations.
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Note added at 8 hrs (2015-02-26 00:16:35 GMT)
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You can also scratch "frequently" which might be unnecessarily inferential.
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Note added at 8 hrs (2015-02-26 00:18:02 GMT)
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Or it may be just the word you need! ;-)
I had thought of using "has a reputation for borrowing, but that already has negative connotations.
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Note added at 8 hrs (2015-02-26 00:16:35 GMT)
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You can also scratch "frequently" which might be unnecessarily inferential.
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Note added at 8 hrs (2015-02-26 00:18:02 GMT)
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Or it may be just the word you need! ;-)
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: I somehow don't think frequency of borrowing is the issue here, but rather the ability to repay
15 hrs
|
|
Yes, as I added, that word can be scrapped, but the idea is to use of more natural form of words.
|
Reference comments
6 hrs
AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Sensible solutions
Native in: English (Variant: Wessexois)
Works in: French to English, English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
1355
Reference:
Example of "notoire" in this context
Qu’est-ce que « l’insolvabilité notoire » ?
Aucune définition n’est donnée par la loi. Les critères et les traits caractéristiques sont à rechercher dans la jurisprudence des Cours d’Appel de Metz et de Colmar.
L’insolvabilité se caractérise par l’impossibilité de payer les dettes dont le débiteur civil est redevable envers ses créanciers.
Il est tenu compte de son capital (l’ensemble des ses biens meubles et immeubles) et de ses revenus, afin de vérifier ses capacité financières. Les dettes prises en compte doivent être certaines, liquides et exigibles.
Aucune définition n’est donnée par la loi. Les critères et les traits caractéristiques sont à rechercher dans la jurisprudence des Cours d’Appel de Metz et de Colmar.
L’insolvabilité se caractérise par l’impossibilité de payer les dettes dont le débiteur civil est redevable envers ses créanciers.
Il est tenu compte de son capital (l’ensemble des ses biens meubles et immeubles) et de ses revenus, afin de vérifier ses capacité financières. Les dettes prises en compte doivent être certaines, liquides et exigibles.
Discussion
C'est malheureusement la défense qui laisse entendre (erronément) que "débiteur notoire" = "mauvais payeur" lorsqu'elle avançe que M. X n'est pas débiteur "notoire" puisqu'il a tout remboursé. (J'ai vu pire!) Dans les circonstances, "well-known debtor" serait fidèle, mais porterait peut-être à confusion en renforçant le côté "bon payeur" et de là l'erreur d'interprétation de la défense; je m'en tiendrais donc à "known debtor" (comme le suggère Finch).