Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Spanish term or phrase:
que motiva su otorgamiento y de la fecha de éste
English translation:
that motivates their execution and of the date thereof
Added to glossary by
Ruth Ramsey
Feb 14, 2016 16:11
8 yrs ago
18 viewers *
Spanish term
United Kingdom
que motiva su otorgamiento y de la fecha de éste
Spanish to English
Law/Patents
Law: Contract(s)
Sale/Purchase Agreement
Sale and Purchase Agreement - Aircraft (Spain)
Is there a more appropriate word than "motivates" here? Does "otorgamiento" mean "grant" or "draw up"? I'm assuming that "éste" refers to "otorgamiento".
Many thanks in advance for your assistance.
"Para la transferencia de la propiedad del airframe se deberá concretar que sólo se transfiere el casco. Los principales términos del contrato definirán las partes, la situación del casco y las condiciones en que se entrega y acepta cada uno, y que se le hace entrega al comprador. En cuanto a la formalización de estos contratos, puede ser privado, pero debe tenerse en cuenta que si se formaliza en documento publico (escritura publica o poliza notarial), hacen prueba, aun contra tercero del hecho que motiva su otorgamiento y de la fecha de éste. (articulo 1.218 del Codigo Civil)."
http://www.translatorscafe.com/tcterms/en-GB/thQuestion.aspx...
Is there a more appropriate word than "motivates" here? Does "otorgamiento" mean "grant" or "draw up"? I'm assuming that "éste" refers to "otorgamiento".
Many thanks in advance for your assistance.
"Para la transferencia de la propiedad del airframe se deberá concretar que sólo se transfiere el casco. Los principales términos del contrato definirán las partes, la situación del casco y las condiciones en que se entrega y acepta cada uno, y que se le hace entrega al comprador. En cuanto a la formalización de estos contratos, puede ser privado, pero debe tenerse en cuenta que si se formaliza en documento publico (escritura publica o poliza notarial), hacen prueba, aun contra tercero del hecho que motiva su otorgamiento y de la fecha de éste. (articulo 1.218 del Codigo Civil)."
http://www.translatorscafe.com/tcterms/en-GB/thQuestion.aspx...
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
1 hr
Selected
that motivates their execution and of the date thereof
See discussion area. I don't by any means always agree with the Ministry of Justice's official English translations of Spanish laws, but I think this one is OK. "Motivates" seems all right to me. If you don't like it, I suppose you could say "prompts" or "brings about" or "gives rise to", but these alternatives and others that come to mind seem to me less accurate. You could say "of the fact by reason of which they were executed and of the date on which this occurred/was done", if you like. "Otorgar", in the context of notarial instruments, means execute, not draw up and not grant. And execute is not the same as sign. See many previous Kudoz questions and/or legal dictionaries.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2016-02-14 19:59:09 GMT)
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Just to elaborate a little on my comment on Phil's answer, "hacen prueba del hecho que motiva su otorgamiento" doesn't mean "constitute evidence of why they were executed". It's not evidence of the reason for executing the instruments (which could be all sorts of things); it's evidence of the facts certified in the instruments, by reason of which they were executed.
It is very often a mistake, in my opinion, to simplify legal texts. You can easily assume that it comes to the same thing, but this is very often because you haven't thought carefully enough about why it was expressed the way it was.
And just by the way, it's not a question of whether you need to cite the actual words of the Civil Code; the ST does cite them, verbatim, and this is of course deliberate.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2016-02-14 19:59:09 GMT)
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Just to elaborate a little on my comment on Phil's answer, "hacen prueba del hecho que motiva su otorgamiento" doesn't mean "constitute evidence of why they were executed". It's not evidence of the reason for executing the instruments (which could be all sorts of things); it's evidence of the facts certified in the instruments, by reason of which they were executed.
It is very often a mistake, in my opinion, to simplify legal texts. You can easily assume that it comes to the same thing, but this is very often because you haven't thought carefully enough about why it was expressed the way it was.
And just by the way, it's not a question of whether you need to cite the actual words of the Civil Code; the ST does cite them, verbatim, and this is of course deliberate.
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you, Charles."
2 hrs
philgoddard
United States
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Native in English
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Six languages into flawless English
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Works in: German to English, French to English, Spanish to English, and 4 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
493
why and when they were executed
I feel the Spanish takes a lot of words to say something that can be expressed quite simply in English.
I feel Charles' second answer is partway there, but "the fact by reason of which" is a rather complicated way of saying "the reason for which", in other words "why".
There's no need to cite the actual words of the civil code, or its not-very-good translation. It's too literal, and "even" for "aún" is quite simply wrong.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2016-02-14 18:39:48 GMT)
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Sorry, "aun".
I feel Charles' second answer is partway there, but "the fact by reason of which" is a rather complicated way of saying "the reason for which", in other words "why".
There's no need to cite the actual words of the civil code, or its not-very-good translation. It's too literal, and "even" for "aún" is quite simply wrong.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2016-02-14 18:39:48 GMT)
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Sorry, "aun".
Note from asker:
| Thanks Phil. What does "aún" mean here? I thought it meant "even". |
| Just to clarify, it's "aun" in the source text and not "aún" as I wrote in my note above. I think it must mean "even" here. |
| Thanks for your answer, Phil. |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Charles Davis
: This is not a comment on the answer itself but simply to point out that aun does mean even. There is nothing else it could mean. / But while I'm at it, "why" is too vague; evidence of motivation is not the same as evidence of the fact that motivated.
56 mins
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"Even" makes no sense in the context. The idea is "also" or "including".
|
21 hrs
Spanish term (edited):
(del hecho) que motiva su otorgamiento y de la fecha de éste
(of the reason) behind the making thereof and of the date of the latter
Motivate in Romance lingos for 'motivar' is a well-known false friend 9 times out of 10 and more commonly means *justify* or underpin. Motivation is often on all fours with rationale or substantiation. Phil G.: the reason why or wherefore.
hacen prueba, aun contra tercero(s) > are evidence (act as a contractual estoppel: perhaps someone on TC picked upon that one) against third parties.
Otorgamiento: granting, making or executing etc. vs. *engrossment* = drawing-up. Reverse translation technique: how would making of a contract or deed be translated back into the Spanish language: a wording with 'efectuation' or, simply, otorgamiento.
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Note added at 21 hrs (2016-02-15 13:28:07 GMT)
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3rd web ref. try: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/linguistics/339...
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Note added at 4 days (2016-02-19 11:40:19 GMT) Post-grading
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despite which reason you, Ruth, did - in the erstwhile, majestic Roman City of Verulamium - verily pick another motivational answer.
hacen prueba, aun contra tercero(s) > are evidence (act as a contractual estoppel: perhaps someone on TC picked upon that one) against third parties.
Otorgamiento: granting, making or executing etc. vs. *engrossment* = drawing-up. Reverse translation technique: how would making of a contract or deed be translated back into the Spanish language: a wording with 'efectuation' or, simply, otorgamiento.
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Note added at 21 hrs (2016-02-15 13:28:07 GMT)
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3rd web ref. try: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/linguistics/339...
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Note added at 4 days (2016-02-19 11:40:19 GMT) Post-grading
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despite which reason you, Ruth, did - in the erstwhile, majestic Roman City of Verulamium - verily pick another motivational answer.
Note from asker:
| Thanks for your answer, Adrian. I think "of the reason" could work here as well. |
| Unfortunately I can only pick one answer even though I might actually use a combination of two answers. |
Discussion
"Los documentos públicos prueban incluso contra terceros o la Hacienda Pública el hecho que motiva su otorgamiento"
http://www.fiscalaldia.es/los-documentos-publicos-prueban-in...
The same principle exists in French law:
"Dans ce cas, dit-il, l'acte ferait foi, même contre un tiers, que la chose contenue dans l'acte s'était déjà passée..."
https://books.google.es/books?id=fIdgAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA493&lpg=P...
And in English it is expressed thus:
"It becomes evidence of a date even against third parties from the day on which it has been registered"
https://books.google.es/books?id=ir4BAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA709&lpg=P...
Anyway, here, for what it's worth, is the Spanish Ministry of Justice's translation of Article 1218 of the Civil Code:
"Article 1218
Public instruments constitute evidence, effective even against third parties, of the fact which motivates their execution and of the date thereof."
http://www.mjusticia.gob.es/cs/Satellite/Portal/129242717794...