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This question was closed without grading. Reason: Answer found elsewhere
Sep 10, 2017 10:19
6 yrs ago
4 viewers *
French term

le plus grand rendez-vous populaire

French to English Marketing General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters horse racing
...le Grand Prix d’Amérique est le plus grand rendez-vous populaire de l’hippisme en France avec un record absolu d’enjeux établi à 39 millions d’euros

... the Prix d'Amérique is the most bet-upon race in France with an all-time record of 39 million euros wagered

Any comments on my understanding of 'le plus grand rendez-vous populaire' here and my proposed translation?

For info:
- 'le plus grand' can not refer to number of spectators as whilst the Prix d'Amérique attracts 40 000, the Arc de Triomphe attracts 42 000
- although €62 million were, wagered on the Arc de Triomphe this includes some €45 million wagered abroad, leaving only €17 million in France - this is what I have based my conclusion/translation on given that the €39 million mentioned in the text were bet just in France

(prize money for the Prix d'Amérique is greater than that for the Arc de Triomphe but this would seem irrelevant due to the notion of 'populaire' in the source text).
Proposed translations (English)
4 the biggest popular horse-racing event
4 the most bet-upon race for French punters
4 is the most popular horse race in terms of attracting bets (with)in France
4 the largest bet-attracting (race) meeting
3 the largest event
References
http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/populaire/62612
Change log

Sep 10, 2017 11:57: writeaway changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Sep 10, 2017 15:50: writeaway changed "Field" from "Other" to "Marketing"

Sep 10, 2017 18:46: Michele Fauble changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (4): Charles Davis, Victoria Britten, Yvonne Gallagher, Michele Fauble

Non-PRO (3): Mair A-W (PhD), Nikki Scott-Despaigne, writeaway

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Discussion

AllegroTrans Sep 11, 2017:
"Answer found elsewhere" Where?
philgoddard Sep 11, 2017:
Well, there's gratitude for you! Answers: 5
Discussion entries: 18
Reference entries: 1
Contributions or thanks from CarolMasip: 0
Charles Davis Sep 11, 2017:
@Gallagy I didn't highlight the bit about bets because that has been the focus of much of the discussion here; the other bit is that part that's been rather ignored. I think bets are part but not all of what "le plus grand" refers to, and I highlighted the other bit (about perceptions, media coverage, etc.) to make that point.

Whether the greatest French race is the Arc or the Prix d'Amérique is a matter of opinion. I would say it's the Arc; at least it's certainly the most famous internationally. Within France, I don't know what people would say. The fact that although more money is bet on the Arc, much more money is bet on the Prix within France (€39M versus €17M on the Arc, Carol tells us) suggests that the perspective might be different there. But in any case the writer is not claiming the Prix is the greatest race, just the greatest popular race, which is a different matter.

I want to use "great" rather than "big" precisely because I think it is expressing an opinion, about importance rather than just size.

I don't think it's obvious at all that we should change the ST if we don't agree with it. But to my mind the opinion expressed here is perfectly reasonable.
Yvonne Gallagher Sep 11, 2017:
2.
Comparing harness and thoroughbred racing is like comparing chalk and cheese as I said earlier. It is far cheaper to breed, buy and train a "cheval trotteur" than to breed, buy and train a thoroughbred. Also, the local farmer might own a trotting horse but be very unlikely to own a thoroughbred. Thus the hoi polloi in France may feel closer or more involved with harness racing and hence more interested in placing bets on their neighbour's horse. In the UK and Ireland, however, harness racing is not very popular at all as it is associated with Irish Travellers racing sulkies along public roads, often with serious animal-welfare issues. (Currently there is a move afoot for Ireland to get more involved in harness racing with France agreeing to allow horses bred in Ireland participate in French races and even offering funds to get this scheme up and running. So I've been hearing more about harness racing) Anyway, my 2 cents. If you want to use "biggest" you will have to say (IMHO) "harness race". There is no doubt that the Arc is the flagship race for thoroughbreds and the Prix d'Amérique flagship harness race (in France)
Yvonne Gallagher Sep 11, 2017:
@ Charles
I don't understand why you omitted to highlight this bit in your last note?
it's the 'greatest' meeting, not in terms of spectators attending, but in terms of money wagered within France on the Pari-Mutuel, i.e, domestically. For those who don't know what this type of betting is (similar to Tote betting here): https://www.gamblingsites.com/sports-betting/types/pari-mutu... But I don't like "greatest" anyway because that is an opinion and I think most horseracing fans would say the "greatest" French race is the Arc (and possibly the most prestigious race in Europe) and which, as previously pointed out, has the largest attendance, purse (prize money) and total amount in bets (including international). Just because the French ST is inaccurate does not mean the English should be as well. Hence it could be said that the Prix d'Amérique is the biggest HARNESS RACE in France and is the most popular race in terms of domestic wagers (9 million betting slips).
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Sep 10, 2017:
It is "le plus grand rendez-vous" and it is also a "rendez-vous populaire".
I repeat that I really like Phil's meaning of ordinary people for the FR use of "populaire" here, and that it exists in EN as a meaning too, altho' is used much less often in that way.
"Biggest" is perhaps not so good as "greatest" : that covers size, impression, whatever.

But honestly, there is absolutely nothing in the original to support a meaning of "most bet-upon". That element is dealt with later in the sentence. It follows on, but is a separate point : greatest (= size/impressive (advertisng puff type language), popular (= wide appeal) then "avec un record absolu, etc.".
Charles Davis Sep 10, 2017:
TC question I've looked at the Translators Café question, and I agree with this comment, from a TC contributor I usually find fairly reliable:

"You can't really say that it's " the most bet-upon race in France " as that isn't what the original text says; it says it's the 'greatest' meeting, not in terms of spectators attending, but in terms of money wagered within France on the Pari-Mutuel, i.e, domestically, and on public perceptions of the meeting, including media coverage, etc." (my emphasis).
Charles Davis Sep 10, 2017:
To bet or not to bet I think the Grand National is an apt comparison. I used to watch it avidly, though I have never literally bet on it (I was in a sweepstake a couple of times). In UK people who never bet on anything else bet on that. But it's a great popular event not only because of the volume of betting, but because it's a great tradition with a long history behind it, and is regarded as the people's race, as opposed to the Derby or Ascot, which are for the toffs. Ordinary people talk about it, much more than any other horse race. It's quite often top story on the news that day.

The Prix d'Amérique has a special place in French popular culture, starting as a tribute to America's role in saving France in the First World War. It's a great social event for all classes. I think "le plus grand" refers to all this sort of thing, rather than just financial statistics, how many million euros are bet on it compared to the Arc de Triomphe.
Charles Davis Sep 10, 2017:
PRO? I've voted PRO, because although the words are simple, deciding how best to translate them here calls for a professional level of judgement and expertise, in my opinion. Simple, everyday words are sometimes difficult to render, and finding the right way to render them can be more difficult than finding equivalents for "terms".

By the way, the word "term", as used on this site, is shorthand for "term or short phrase".
Charles Davis Sep 10, 2017:
le plus grand I can't agree that this should be translated as "most bet-upon", or words to that effect. If that was what the writer wanted to say, it could easily have been done, for example by saying something like "la course la plus jouée par les parieurs", as on the race's website. Using "le plus grand rendez-vous populaire" to express that idea was pretty inept, if it was the intention. I find it more plausible that the writer made this more general statement deliberately. I can see no good reason not to do the same in English. Contrary to what has been said, describing this as the greatest popular horse-racing event in France makes perfect sense (regardless of whether you agree).

I think there's a good argument for translating "le plus grand" as "the greatest" rather than "the biggest". It seems to me that "grand" probably refers not to some numerical criterion, such as volume of betting, but to the importance of this race as a popular event. The volume of betting is no doubt one of the things that makes it the greatest, but more generally, it probably means the event dearest to the heart of the French public (like the Grand National, rather than the Derby, in the UK).
AllegroTrans Sep 10, 2017:
I think it's non-PRO. It certainly is not a "term" in the way that ProZ speaks of terms.
writeaway Sep 10, 2017:
@Phil The easy questions tend to generate the greatest amount of discussion. See the case in hand. So that's not a basis for deciding it's pro.
Victoria Britten Sep 10, 2017:
Curioser and... I went to click on the link for aforementioned support ticket, and behold, there was the "Vote PRO" button! I am now thoroughly baffled.
Victoria Britten Sep 10, 2017:
Pro I agree with both of you that this should be a pro question, but the link isn't there. I'm submitting a support ticket, as much out of curiosity as anything.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Sep 10, 2017:
@Phil You're right. I wanted to change back to Pro and couldn't access it.

I like your suggestion of "ordinary" for the meaning of "populaire".
philgoddard Sep 10, 2017:
Definitely a pro question... ... as reflected by the amount of discussion.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Sep 10, 2017:
@Phil This is what I mentionned in my first post here. It is easy enough to render with "biggest popular horse-racing event".
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Sep 10, 2017:
@Carol, ctd. "Le plus grand RDV" suggests the biggest event in size, in terms of numbers of people attending. It could also mean the greatest number of participants, or even the greatest in terms of money involved, not just in terms of bets placed.

"Populaire" has a number of meanings but one not to be overlooked in French, as it is used is this way a great deal, is that of an event that attracts people from all different walks of life, but particularly the ones from lower socio-economic classes, who might not otherwise attend this type of event. That notion is difficult to translate in English, at least, in some politically correct form. However, the same meaning does exist in the English term. (See the Oxford dic entry).
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Sep 10, 2017:
@Carol I think you may be over-reading the meaning of "populaire" here. The ordinary meaning of "populaire" applies here : http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/populaire/6261... Various nuances do attach to the meaning of the term as you can see from the Larousse entry. The same is true of the ENglish term "popluar" : https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/popular
Those meanings can range from being the one which has the greatest number of people attending to the one that is most loved, but the term can also describe one that is attended and/or appreciated by people of lower social economic classes.
The point is that does not matter for your translation as the English term carries the same nuances as the French term. Further, the sentence concerned goes on to say that the event in question has the all-time record of the amount wagered.

In my opinion, "most bet-upon" for "le plus populaire" is not correct here. The second part of the sentence describes the record element and "most bet-upon" does not mean the greatest amount either. It could mean it has the most number of bets, for example. In fact, I think it is a mistranslation of "populaire" here.
Mair A-W (PhD) Sep 10, 2017:
Your context (and research) suggests that by "le plus grand ... populaire" they are talking about the biggest *for betting*, but this is kind of phrase is always context dependent. Your English context should suggest the same ("..., with ... $$ wagered), but I don't think there's any need to force "most bet-on" (or more generally, any specifics) into a part of the sentence where it isn't present.

("Le plus grand" in different contexts might mean the most racegoers, the most bet-on, the most horses/races, the one taking place over the largest area, the most money spent, ... )

Proposed translations

1 hr
French term (edited): le plus grand rendez-vous populaire de l'hippisme

the biggest popular horse-racing event

In order to account for the fact that the event is described as being "le plus grand" and as being "populaire", then both need to be included in the translation.

Yes, there are several nuances of meaning possible to the French "populaire", but the same exist in the English term too. See my discussion posts. Note in particular the meaning used more commonly in French for "populaire", that is, that it is one that particularly attracts members of the public from the lower socio-economic end of the spectrum. A slight trade-off in the translation, as, although this meaning does exist in the English meaings of "popular", it is not used so often in this way in English.

Most importantly, the original does say "biggest" and "popular", thus two ideas that both have meaning and that both need to be represented, in my view.

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Note added at 1 hr (2017-09-10 11:56:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I do like Phil's suggestion of "ordinary" for the meaning of "populaire". Difficult to render in English and the term "popular" does have that meaning too, altyhough is much less used in English in that way. That's where I think there is a necessary compromise in this one.
Note from asker:
Thank you. The facts are apparently : Prix d'Amérique 40 000 racegoers v Arc de T 42 000 therefore is PdA is not the biggest (and therefore most popular) in terms of racegoers €39 million bet in France on Prix d'Amérique v € 17 million bet in France on Arc de Triomphe (actual total of €62 million including €45 million wagered abroad)
Peer comment(s):
agree Charles Davis : I very much agree with your comments here and in the discussion area on "populaire" (and "plus grand"). To assume that it must refer only to value (or number) of bets is unwarranted: in a word, over-translation.
7 mins
neutral philgoddard : Popular is ambiguous. This could imply that other events are unpopular.
1 hr
"Populaire" is is little ambiguous in the French too, altho' I thing your idea of "ordinary people" is the meaning here. Usual in French, exists in EN too, altho' less commonly used. Cf. disc Posts. Does not in any way imply others are unpopular.
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : it's clear it's neither the biggest nor the most popular horse race for wagers within France (and BTW people bet on races, not on events!)
1 hr
Something went wrong...
1 hr

the most bet-upon race for French punters

My answer is taken verbatim from the Prix d'Amérique website.

I think the idea of "populaire"is "among ordinary French people".

"Biggest" and "most popular" don't work in my opinion. They're ambiguous - I think most people would take them to mean numbers of numbers of live and/or TV spectators.

The Arc de Triomphe is arguably both the biggest and most popular event and, as Carol says, attracts far higher levels of international betting.

Since the sentence ends by stating that the Prix d'Amérique attracts record stakes, I think it should begin with something specific like "most bet-upon".

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Note added at 2 hrs (2017-09-10 12:48:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In answer to your additional question, no. You can't say "stakers", and it's not the number of bets as far as I know, it's the amount.
Reference:

http://www.prix-amerique.com/?lang=en

Note from asker:
Thank you for your input Phil. In your opinion (or anyone else's), would something like 'that attracts the greatest number of stakers in France' work?
Peer comment(s):
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : I like your choice of "ordinary" for meaning of "populaire". I don't like your choice of "punters", a little derogatory. "Most bet-upon" is an inaccurate reading of the original in my view.
27 mins
Punters isn't derogatory, it's just a colloquial term for gamblers.
neutral Charles Davis : If you go this way, I suppose you ought to say "the race most bet upon by French punters". / Btw, on the website your answer is a translation of "la course la plus jouée par les parieurs chaque année en France", not of this phrase.
34 mins
I know, but as I said, a more literal translation wouldn't work.
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3 hrs

is the most popular horse race in terms of attracting bets (with)in France

The Grand Prix d’Amérique is the most popular horse race in terms of attracting bets (with)in France
or
The Grand Prix d’Amérique is the (horse) race which attracts the most bets from people in France
or
More bets are placed in France on the Grand Prix d’Amérique than on any other (horse) race. [you probably don't need to say "horse" as it's probably already clear in your context]

I think it needs a looser, more explanatory translation rather than word-for-word.
it's clear this is not the biggest race, either in terms of racegoers or of bets wagered.

Like Polygot, I am also reminded of the Grand National where people from all walks of life, who do not normally do so, place bets. I wouldn't call these people "punters" or gamblers necessarily as for many of them this is the only, or one of a few, races they bet on. This may be the only time they place a bet each year so punters or gamblers doesn't really fit imho. (And I speak for my own family here: we bet on the Cheltenham Gold Cup, Aintree Grand National and the Irish National=3 races a year).

I considered using "ordinary" people as suggested by Phil but this would imply that others don't gamble on this race. Obviously, with that amount of bets, you are going to haveregular punters, high rollers and then Mr or Ms J Soap having their one flutter of the year...

Finally, it's a horse race not an "event".

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Note added at 3 hrs (2017-09-10 13:34:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I probably should have said

"the largest amount in bets in France"... as it's not clear whether it's about amount of bets or amount of money.
You may have it elsewhere in your context what the amount refers to.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2017-09-10 14:04:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hi Carol, yes, but the TC commentator isn't taking your the research you've done into account. It's clear from that the that most poplualr in attendance and in bets is Arc de Triomphe (attracts 42,000 spectators and €62 million in bets) so it's clear that this race is NOT the most popular or biggest. Just the most popular in terms of people in France taking a punt, or amount of bets placed in France. I think you need to be accurate when you actually have the figures.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2017-09-10 14:06:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

oops, sorry 1st line of last note. "taking your the research you've done into account. It's clear from that the that

should read
taking the research you've done into account. It's clear from that that the...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2017-09-10 14:18:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I also think "a meeting" or "event" gives the wrong idea. It's one race. You may also point to the fact that this is a harness race (with sulkie or "trotting" as it's known in Europe) whereas the Arc de Triomphe is horse racing with mounted jockey so really comparing chalk and cheese as not the same kind of racing at all...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2017-09-10 14:23:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Facts from its own website
http://www.prix-amerique.com/?lang=en
The Prix d'Amérique Opodo is the planet’s biggest trotting race
The Prix d’Amérique Opodo not only boasts the highest prize money in France but is also the world’s richest race in this discipline.
40 millions
The amount of bets placed, in euros, on just the Grand Prix d’Amérique race. This makes it the most bet-upon race of the year for French punters.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2017-09-10 14:30:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Yes, I do think 'the race that attracts most bets in France" would work. I mean €39 million is a lot! French racegoers obviously prefer to bet on harness racing.

The Prix de L'Arc de Triomphe is far more wel-known and that's why it attracts bets worldwide. And a lot of people travel to France to watch the AdT race as well whereas I doubt there would be as many foreign spectators at the Prix d'Amérique harness race.

Note from asker:
Thank you for your detailed answer. This is how I understood the SL, however, one person who has commented on TranslatorsCafé advises that a translation such as you have suggested (one I was inclinded to opt for I might add) is moving too far from what is in the original text. Therefore I may opt for "the most popular horse-racing meeting in France" (le plus grand rendez-vous populaire...), leaving the sense of 'most popular' to the readerr's interpretation.
Now that some people have confirmed my interpretation the dilema I have is this: how far can I move from the source language text (which could have been more specific, refering to number of bets etc.) but it is not, it is quite general?. The point is that whilst the AdT attracts €62 million in bets, if €45 million of that amount is wagered abroad, only €17 million is placed in bets in France against the €39 million placed on the Prix d'Amérique in France. Would, in your opinion, ' the race that attracts most bets in France work? Really appreciate everyone's contribution and assistance.
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

the largest bet-attracting (race) meeting

I am surprised nobody has suggested "meeting" for "rendez-vous". As well as being the literal translation it's the term used in horse racing.

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Peer comment(s):
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : Asker already used "meeting" but imo that's used for the whole day(s). We talk of the Aintree National meeting/festival but The Grand National "race" http://www.aintree-grand-national.net/grand-national-meeting...
4 hrs
Ah! The voice of someone living in horse breeding country! Yes, you do have a valid point
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5 hrs

the largest event

The event is already named and the betting importance also mentioned. So plainly said the largest event and you can add horseracing, betting just like the original text does.
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Reference comments

46 mins
Reference:

http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/populaire/62612

This is the reference also quoted by NSD but I add it because the text you have to translate reminds me of the Grand National
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_National

"An event that is prominent in British culture, the race is popular amongst many people who do not normally watch or bet on horse racing at other times of the year"

They are clearly talking about the fact that the Prix de l'Arc de Trimphe attracts the punters in all senses of the word !

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2017-09-10 12:09:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I should have written "Grand Prix d’Amérique" but the principle remains the same
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree writeaway
52 mins
agree mchd
1 hr
agree Victoria Britten
2 hrs
agree Yvonne Gallagher
2 hrs
agree Charles Davis : Absolutely. The Grand National is a very apt reference. I never actually bet on it but I used to watch it avidly in my youth. Popularity is not just a matter of actually betting. (Do they have office sweepstakes in France, btw?)
6 hrs
agree Michele Fauble
7 hrs
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