Glossary entry (derived from question below)
May 27, 2018 20:18
5 yrs ago
Spanish term
trisca
Spanish to English
Other
Music
Guitar
This appears in a brief history of the guitar.
All suggestions are welcome.
Thank you.
All suggestions are welcome.
Thank you.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +2 | rustic dance (?) // merriment, celebration |
Charles Davis
|
| 4 | crushing/overwhelming/extremely loud/powerful noise |
Barbara Cochran, MFA
|
| 3 +1 | noisy jubilation [bulla, algarabía] |
Chema Nieto Castañón
|
Change log
May 27, 2018 23:54: Chema Nieto Castañón changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"
May 29, 2018 20:09: Charles Davis changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/693707">sumire (X)'s</a> old entry - "trisca"" to ""rustic dance (?) // merriment, celebration""
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:
PRO (3): Charles Davis, lorenab23, Chema Nieto Castañón
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Proposed translations
+2
1 hr
Selected
rustic dance (?) // merriment, celebration
See my answer to your question on "corpulento laúd".
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/music/6517846-...
This is the end of the same line:
""El corpudo laud que tiene punto a la trisca", which James T. Monroe translated as "The portly lute accompanies a rustic dance". So apparently Monroe, a great expert on the text, thinks "trisca" means a rustic dance.
In modern Spanish, "trisca" means a loud noise:
"1. f. Ruido que se hace con los pies en una cosa que se quebranta.
2. f. Bulla, algazara o estruendo."
http://dle.rae.es/?id=aiTwlnv
But that doesn't mean that it meant that in the fourteenth century when this was written. The notes to the Clásicos Castellanos edition of the Libro de buen amor, from which this comes, say that trisca means "regocijo" here. So "merriment" or "celebration".
https://books.google.es/books?id=AQ5QRqSLG4MC&pg=PT598&lpg=P...
It's worth noting that John Stevens, in his Spanish-English dictionary of 1706, says that as well as meaning the noise of treading on nutshells, trisca is "us'd also for a Jest or Banter".
Consulted through http://buscon.rae.es/ntlle/SrvltGUIMenuNtlle?cmd=Lema&sec=1....
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2018-05-27 21:47:06 GMT)
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With great respect to Monroe, I think "merriment" or "celebration" is probably the right meaning.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2018-05-28 00:09:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
As Chema says, the word "trisca" impllies a noisy, joyful celebration. Julio Cejador y Frauja, in his glossary of medieval Spanish, defines it as "dancing, leaping, merriment".
However, I've also found another interpretation of the word as it's used in this line from the Libro de buen amor, which supports Monroe's translation of "rustic dance". In his history of dance (Viaje a través de la historia de la danza), José Rafael Vilar suggests that trisca is a variant of tresca, and refers to a lively and very popular medieval dance called treske, which comes from Old German dreskan, and means stamping your feet on the floor. Those who can read Spanish will find details here:
https://books.google.es/books?id=Z8CA7VM4eIoC&pg=PA48
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2018-05-28 00:14:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I'm now inclined to think that this interpretation of a treske dance is quite plausible; "tiene punto a" does imply providing the rhythm, and a musical instrument is likely to be providing the rhythm for a dance rather than just a general celebration.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2018-05-28 00:25:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
More on treske: it's mentioned in a late-thirteenth-century French play by Adam de la Halle called Le jeu de Robin et Marion:
"Que je te voi si bien baler.
Or voeil jou le treske mener"
"Marion calls upon the company to dance a treske, a chain dance, probably similar to the later farandole, and asks Robin to lead it. [...] There are many visual representations of medieval dancers weaving their way through streets and market places, holding hands in a long chain. [...] The treske or farandole represents the ultimate social dance that can involve every member of the community, young and old alike. There are no steps to learn and it can be walked, skipped or run depending on the energy or dignity of the participants."
The Routledge Research Companion to Early Drama and Performance, 156
https://books.google.es/books?id=iCIlDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA156
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2018-05-28 00:26:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Then again, some seventeenth-century Spanish-French dictionaries give "hand-clapping" as a meaning of trisca.
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/music/6517846-...
This is the end of the same line:
""El corpudo laud que tiene punto a la trisca", which James T. Monroe translated as "The portly lute accompanies a rustic dance". So apparently Monroe, a great expert on the text, thinks "trisca" means a rustic dance.
In modern Spanish, "trisca" means a loud noise:
"1. f. Ruido que se hace con los pies en una cosa que se quebranta.
2. f. Bulla, algazara o estruendo."
http://dle.rae.es/?id=aiTwlnv
But that doesn't mean that it meant that in the fourteenth century when this was written. The notes to the Clásicos Castellanos edition of the Libro de buen amor, from which this comes, say that trisca means "regocijo" here. So "merriment" or "celebration".
https://books.google.es/books?id=AQ5QRqSLG4MC&pg=PT598&lpg=P...
It's worth noting that John Stevens, in his Spanish-English dictionary of 1706, says that as well as meaning the noise of treading on nutshells, trisca is "us'd also for a Jest or Banter".
Consulted through http://buscon.rae.es/ntlle/SrvltGUIMenuNtlle?cmd=Lema&sec=1....
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2018-05-27 21:47:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
With great respect to Monroe, I think "merriment" or "celebration" is probably the right meaning.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2018-05-28 00:09:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
As Chema says, the word "trisca" impllies a noisy, joyful celebration. Julio Cejador y Frauja, in his glossary of medieval Spanish, defines it as "dancing, leaping, merriment".
However, I've also found another interpretation of the word as it's used in this line from the Libro de buen amor, which supports Monroe's translation of "rustic dance". In his history of dance (Viaje a través de la historia de la danza), José Rafael Vilar suggests that trisca is a variant of tresca, and refers to a lively and very popular medieval dance called treske, which comes from Old German dreskan, and means stamping your feet on the floor. Those who can read Spanish will find details here:
https://books.google.es/books?id=Z8CA7VM4eIoC&pg=PA48
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2018-05-28 00:14:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I'm now inclined to think that this interpretation of a treske dance is quite plausible; "tiene punto a" does imply providing the rhythm, and a musical instrument is likely to be providing the rhythm for a dance rather than just a general celebration.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2018-05-28 00:25:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
More on treske: it's mentioned in a late-thirteenth-century French play by Adam de la Halle called Le jeu de Robin et Marion:
"Que je te voi si bien baler.
Or voeil jou le treske mener"
"Marion calls upon the company to dance a treske, a chain dance, probably similar to the later farandole, and asks Robin to lead it. [...] There are many visual representations of medieval dancers weaving their way through streets and market places, holding hands in a long chain. [...] The treske or farandole represents the ultimate social dance that can involve every member of the community, young and old alike. There are no steps to learn and it can be walked, skipped or run depending on the energy or dignity of the participants."
The Routledge Research Companion to Early Drama and Performance, 156
https://books.google.es/books?id=iCIlDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA156
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2018-05-28 00:26:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Then again, some seventeenth-century Spanish-French dictionaries give "hand-clapping" as a meaning of trisca.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Chema Nieto Castañón
: Hi Charles; I have just seen your answer! As you suggest, the idea of trisca here is that of "celebration", and particularly so a "noisy, joyful celebration" as one with music and dances and playful laughs...
2 hrs
|
|
Many thanks, Chema :-) Cejador, Vocabulario medieval castellano, gives "bailoteo, saltos, regocijo" ( https://books.google.es/books?id=xxxpjE2eWtsC&pg=PA395 ): "boisterous" expresses it. But it might be treske (a dance); I'll add a note.
|
|
| agree |
Andy Watkinson
: So perhaps it's best I refrain from suggesting it refers to cabras triscando por los montes...?
4 hrs
|
|
Don't let me stop you if you feel like it :) Thanks, Andy!
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you so much.
You are of great help to me.
Also, I’d like to thank you all for helping me on this.
Muchas gracias!
"
30 mins
Barbara Cochran, MFA
United States
United States
Native in English
United States
Laudable Lady Linguist
Native in: English 
Works in: Spanish to English, French to English, English to Spanish, and 3 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
14
crushing/overwhelming/extremely loud/powerful noise
Libro De Consultación: Collins Robert Unabridged Spanish/English Dictionary
Almost as if it hurts to listen to it (crush the eardrums).
Almost as if it hurts to listen to it (crush the eardrums).
Note from asker:
| Thank you. |
+1
3 hrs
Chema Nieto Castañón
Spain
Spain
Native in Spanish
Specializes in field
Spain
Psychologist & Emergency Physician
Native in: Spanish (Variant: Standard-Spain)
Works in: English to Spanish
noisy jubilation [bulla, algarabía]
El original procede del Libro del Buen Amor (del siglo XIV). Por ejemplo aquí
Allí sale gritando la guitarra morisca
de las voces aguda y de los puntos arisca;
el corpudo laúd, que tiene punto a la trisca;
la guitarra latina con estos se aprisca.
https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://w...
El sentido de la frase en cuestión (el corpudo laúd, que tiene punto a la trisca) lo encontramos, por ejemplo, aquí;
.. el voluminoso laúd que da ritmo a la trisca
https://books.google.es/books?id=MTleLv81KpUC&pg=PA103&lpg=P...
Y el sentido de trisca en este caso, debemos leerlo como bulla o algarabía más que como simple estruendo; for example, a noisy jubilation.
... that gives rhythm to the noisy jubilation.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2018-05-27 23:46:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
La idea del laúd dando ritmo a la algarabía apunta al sentido festivo de trisca en tanto que celebración bullanguera, una fiesta en toda regla, ruidosa e informal, donde tocan los músicos y baila y canta y habla y ríe la gente en derredor.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2018-05-28 01:23:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Racket
En el bellísimo diccionario de Rosal, de 1611, aparece
"Trisca y Triscar, de Trice y Tricari, Latino. Sino es como Terisca, de Terere, que es Trillar, por la confusión y vocería de los veranos, y trillas en las eras del pan, donde se acostumbran burlas y pullas."
Y en el de 1706 de Stevens, traduce Trisca del Covarrubias; "The noise of treading on any brittle thing, as Glass (...)". Y añade, "us'd also for a Jest or Banter". Triscar "To toy, to triffle, to make such a noise as of treading on Glass (...)"
En el Diccionario de Autoridades de 1739 aparece básicamente como ruido;
El ruido, que se hace con los pies en alguna cosa, que se quebranta: como avellanas, nueces, &c. Y por extensión se dice de otra qualquier bulla, ò estruendo. Covarr. juzga se dixo del mismo sonido por la figura Onomatopéya, ò de la voz Griega Trismos, que significa estridor. Lat. Crepitus, us. Strepitus. SOLD. PIND. lib. 1. §. 11. Sentía sumamente, que entre otras triscas, y burlas le dixessen, que su muger le habia parido un hijo blanco. ALFAR. part. 2. lib. 1. cap. 4. Llegandose adonde yo estaba con mucha grita, y trisca, haciendo grande ruido.
El sentido básico aquí sería el de bulla en tanto que ruido de mucha gente junta, hablando y gritando entre bromas y confusión. Poner ritmo a la algarabía, al bullicio. En contexto, parece razonable interpretarlo como alusión a una fiesta; el "gordo" laúd que da ritmo al bullicio de la fiesta, que pone orden y concierto;
The portly lute that gives rhythm to the boisterous celebration
O más literalmente tal vez,
The portly lute that gives rhythm to the racket
En cuanto a treske/tresque, no he encontrado referencias de época en los diccionarios aludidos -lo que no significa que no se utilizase como tal- aunque resultaría extraña la confusión de la grafía en el original castellano (me refiero a utilizar trisca en vez de tresque).
Allí sale gritando la guitarra morisca
de las voces aguda y de los puntos arisca;
el corpudo laúd, que tiene punto a la trisca;
la guitarra latina con estos se aprisca.
https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://w...
El sentido de la frase en cuestión (el corpudo laúd, que tiene punto a la trisca) lo encontramos, por ejemplo, aquí;
.. el voluminoso laúd que da ritmo a la trisca
https://books.google.es/books?id=MTleLv81KpUC&pg=PA103&lpg=P...
Y el sentido de trisca en este caso, debemos leerlo como bulla o algarabía más que como simple estruendo; for example, a noisy jubilation.
... that gives rhythm to the noisy jubilation.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2018-05-27 23:46:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
La idea del laúd dando ritmo a la algarabía apunta al sentido festivo de trisca en tanto que celebración bullanguera, una fiesta en toda regla, ruidosa e informal, donde tocan los músicos y baila y canta y habla y ríe la gente en derredor.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2018-05-28 01:23:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Racket
En el bellísimo diccionario de Rosal, de 1611, aparece
"Trisca y Triscar, de Trice y Tricari, Latino. Sino es como Terisca, de Terere, que es Trillar, por la confusión y vocería de los veranos, y trillas en las eras del pan, donde se acostumbran burlas y pullas."
Y en el de 1706 de Stevens, traduce Trisca del Covarrubias; "The noise of treading on any brittle thing, as Glass (...)". Y añade, "us'd also for a Jest or Banter". Triscar "To toy, to triffle, to make such a noise as of treading on Glass (...)"
En el Diccionario de Autoridades de 1739 aparece básicamente como ruido;
El ruido, que se hace con los pies en alguna cosa, que se quebranta: como avellanas, nueces, &c. Y por extensión se dice de otra qualquier bulla, ò estruendo. Covarr. juzga se dixo del mismo sonido por la figura Onomatopéya, ò de la voz Griega Trismos, que significa estridor. Lat. Crepitus, us. Strepitus. SOLD. PIND. lib. 1. §. 11. Sentía sumamente, que entre otras triscas, y burlas le dixessen, que su muger le habia parido un hijo blanco. ALFAR. part. 2. lib. 1. cap. 4. Llegandose adonde yo estaba con mucha grita, y trisca, haciendo grande ruido.
El sentido básico aquí sería el de bulla en tanto que ruido de mucha gente junta, hablando y gritando entre bromas y confusión. Poner ritmo a la algarabía, al bullicio. En contexto, parece razonable interpretarlo como alusión a una fiesta; el "gordo" laúd que da ritmo al bullicio de la fiesta, que pone orden y concierto;
The portly lute that gives rhythm to the boisterous celebration
O más literalmente tal vez,
The portly lute that gives rhythm to the racket
En cuanto a treske/tresque, no he encontrado referencias de época en los diccionarios aludidos -lo que no significa que no se utilizase como tal- aunque resultaría extraña la confusión de la grafía en el original castellano (me refiero a utilizar trisca en vez de tresque).
Note from asker:
| Thanks for your help, much appreciated. |
Discussion
Thanks again, Charles!
Rustic dance has my vote! ;)
There is something in trisca/triscar that evokes a noisy context. Covarrubias' etymologies do just convey this feeling. Accepting trisca might refer to a specific dance in the original text, and as it came out anyway, I just wonder whether rustic dance does convey (in English) the reasonable context of a noisy, joyful, informal celebration, which most probably (and I admit this is just a gut feeling) accompanied the original dance.
And it makes sense anyhow; around here at least, and I feel medieval or not, a rustic dance is inevitable synonym of "noisy celebration" ;)
And so, as said, you have convinced me of the plausible relation of trisca to a (medieval) rustic dance.
Thanks again for the thorough research, Charles!
https://books.google.es/books?id=MTleLv81KpUC&pg=PA103&lpg=P...
Another is María Rosa Lida de Malkiel, one of the greatest hispanomedievalists of the twentieth century, whose footnote reads "1228 c. que acompaña a la trisca, cierta danza rústica":
https://www.scribd.com/document/346404123/Maria-Rosa-Lida-de...
https://revistas.ucm.es/index.php/DICE/article/download/4463...
I am prepared to trust Corominas: the root is Germanic. Corominas goes on to say that in the Purgatorio de San Patricio (13th century) triscar "parece significar 'brincar, retozar'", and that "El derivado trisca está en el ALEX [Libro de Alexandre, late 12th century or first half of 13th] con el sentido de 'danza' o 'baile retozón, gracioso'."
Corominas says that triscar is derived "Del gót. thriskan, 'trillar', de donde se pasó a 'patear, brincar, retozar'". Treske, the dance, has the same root.
On the question of whether the vowel shifts required for treske to become trisca are plausible, I don't find it unlikely a priori, but I am not an expert in historical linguistics. In any case, we need to remember that the LBA was written nearly three hundred years before the dictionary entries you and I have been consulting.
James Monroe, though he may be wrong on this, is a very distinguished hispanomedievalist and I would not dismiss his views lightly. And I am very struck by the fact that an authority as eminent as Cejador associates trisca with "bailoteo", and that Alberto Blecua, who is a top-class philologist, says "La trisca es una danza rústica" in his edition of LBA (Cátedra, a standard edition).
Boisterous celebration también me parece ajustado aquí.
Sobre el treske/tresque no lo tengo tan claro como Monroe ;)
Saludos varios!
Where it's from. When it's from, if it's not contemporary. And as much textual context as possible - the whole paragraph is always good; or at least a sentence or two in front of the passage in which the phrase in question is found, and at least a sentence or two after the phrase.
Without context, it's all just guessing, pretty much.
que acompaña a la trisca".
que con ellos se aprisca".
con muchos instrumentos salen los atambores. Allí sale gritando la guitarra morisca, De voz aguda y áspera en sus notas; El corpulento laúd que acompaña la danza trisca; La guitarra latina con estos se junta.