This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
prancing poetry
gradual argument

Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

give the other a hundred yards

English answer:

give an advantage of 100 yards

Added to glossary by Clauwolf
Dec 8, 2019 12:11
4 yrs ago
2 viewers *
English term

give the other a hundred yards

English Other General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters Horse racing
From Silver Blaze, Arthur Conan Doyle:

"Is it a fact that at the weights Bayard could give the other a hundred yards in five furlongs, and that the stable have put their money on him?"

Two explanations directly contradict each other as far as which horse is being handicapped:

http://sherlockholmes.stanford.edu/2007/notes2_1.html
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/at-the-weights-bayar...

Is there anybody familiar with horse racing who is CERTAIN about which explanation is the correct one?
Responses
3 +3 give an advantage of 100 yards
4 In a five-furlong race, Bayard would win even if the other horse started 100 yards ahead.
4 -1 yes, contradictory readings
References
Straight from the horse's mouth
From The Baker Street Journal
Change log

Dec 22, 2019 13:26: Clauwolf Created KOG entry

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Yvonne Gallagher

When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.

How to tell the difference between "easy" and "pro" questions:

An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an easy question is one that any native speaker of the language would be able to answer correctly.)

A pro question is anything else... in other words, any question that requires knowledge or skills that are specialized (even slightly).

Another way to think of the difficulty levels is this: an easy question is one that deals with everyday conversation. A pro question is anything else.

When deciding between easy and pro, err on the side of pro. Most questions will be pro.

* Note: non-member askers are not given the option of entering 'pro' questions; the only way for their questions to be classified as 'pro' is for a ProZ.com member or members to re-classify it.

Discussion

Yvonne Gallagher Dec 10, 2019:
@ Alison Thanks for explaining your reasoning and that's how I read it to begin with as well until I learned that SB was the favourite and the superstar. Bayard is not described as either of those, hence, considering the shady character speaking these words, it makes no sense that it would be so fast and could give SB that sort of headstart. We are told in the text that the trainer intended, and tried, to nobble SB and THIS NOBBLING it seems, along with less weight than SB, is the only possible way that Bayard could win. Definitely not a superstar!
Obviously the trainer has money on Bayard to win which is why he has to nobble SB and presumably the speaker is in on the act as well. When he says "the stable" he is really talking about the trainer. I'd say he arrived too early (planning to nobble the horse), before the stable boy fell asleep from the drug, and just had to come up with some excuse for being there so tried to make it seem that Bayard was a superfast horse, which clearly it isn't. BUT the Asker's original question "which horse is being handicapped" can be clearly answered: Silver Blaze
Alison MacG Dec 10, 2019:
@Yvonne so WHY would Silver Blaze be "getting a headstart" when it is the horse carrying the most weight??

I don’t think there is any inference that Silver Blaze is literally getting a head start.
My reading of at the weights Bayard could give the other a hundred yards in five furlongs is:
The advantage gained by Bayard from the weight conceded to him by Silver Blaze is so great that it is likely he would be able to defeat Silver Blaze comfortably - in fact to such an extent that he could even give Silver Blaze a head start of 100 yards and still win.
Where the Baker Street Journal text says even after giving Silver Blaze a head start, it probably should have said even were he to give Silver Blaze a head start
Yvonne Gallagher Dec 10, 2019:
@Alison You know I don't disagree very often (unlike 1 serial disagreer here) and certainly not with you! But I find this contention very contradictory:
"Bayard was getting weight from Silver Blaze, (yes, true, SB is carrying MORE weight as the favourite) enough to offer the possibility that he (Bayard) could defeat his more illustrious stable-mate at the mile and five furlongs to be run, even after giving Silver Blaze a head start of a hundred yards in five furlongs. so WHY would Silver Blaze be "getting a headstart" when it is the horse carrying the most weight??
Yvonne Gallagher Dec 10, 2019:
@ all at first I didn't see any contradiction either and thought it was non-Pro (sorry about that as it obviously isn't after all) I had to ask Lincoln where he saw a contradiction. (sorry now I deleted that question). So I started by thinking Clauwolf was right but changed my mind after reading the story.
Yvonne Gallagher Dec 10, 2019:
@ Daryo You know very little about horseracing if you argue that "NONE [sic!] of the two horses is being handicapped" The favourite, in this case Silver Blaze" is being handicapped (and possibly Bayard too though that isn't mentioned. "at the weights" could mean the weights all horses in the race are carrying or just the weights SB is carrying).
And you're really showing your ignorance if you think the stranger in the night (Simpson) was simply there looking for a tip from the stable boy!! That would be laughable if it weren't so ridiculous. Also, you've completely missed the fact that the trainer was planning to fix the race by nobbling the favourite SB so he could win big on better odds.
Daryo Dec 9, 2019:
More accurately Two explanations directly contradict each other as far as which horse is being handicapped:

should in fact be:

Two explanations directly contradict each other as far as which horse is the one that ought to be handicapped:

NONE of the two horses is being handicapped - the question asked to the stable boy is purely hypothetical.

We know that later in this story Silver Blaze wins the race (where Bayard is absent, BTW), but that doesn't / couldn't change the meaning of a hypothetical question.
Lincoln Hui (asker) Dec 8, 2019:
See the first link.

Responses

+3
1 hr
Selected

give an advantage of 100 yards

:) Bayard would win even using the weight to compensate for being faster than the other horse, and the stable workers are betting on it...
Somebody is asking to be sure
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M
48 mins
thanks
agree Charlotte Fleming
2 hrs
thanks
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : Sorry but have to disagree. Like you I thought at first that Bayard was the best horse but when you read more of the context he is NOT and is also NOT the horse handicapped//read the story. Bayard does NOT win
3 hrs
Bayard wins:) It's a "stable information", no contradiction
agree B D Finch : Yes, the man is asking the stable boy for a tip on the race and suggesting that the stable has put its money on Bayard of the two horses they have in the race. "At the weights", means with the weight allocated to each of the two horses.
1 day 4 hrs
thanks
agree Daryo : EXACTLY that - also confirmed by taking the trouble to read the story!
1 day 7 hrs
thanks
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
-1
4 hrs

yes, contradictory readings

OK I didn't see the line in the 1st link before.

"'Is it a fact that at the weights Bayard could give the other a hundred yards in five furlongs...?'" (4)
... The man seems to be asking if the King's Pyland stablehands themselves believe that Bayard could lose to the favorite, Silver Blaze, by a hundred yards in five furlongs even though the latter's handicap weight is so much greater.

Some more context was needed to see the error here. It seems to me that Conan Doyle is misunderstanding how weights work or racing terminology.

If Silver Blaze is the favourite, as the stanger says here, and as the odds imply (5 to 4 on) then that is the horse that will be more heavily handicapped/have more weight

Normally the phrase "Bayard could give the other a hundred yards in five furlongs...." implies that Bayard is the better horse and can give the other horse a headstart but still will WIN (not lose) and that's why the stable is backing him.

However, it seems the way it is being intended here is

Is it true that if Silver Blaze is wearing weights (handicapped), Bayard will be one hundred yards ahead of him after he has run five furlongs or 1100 yards? (and thus be the winner)

It is rather odd.

We know from the ending that Silver Blaze in disguise wins the race but maybe is nort handicapped in the same way?
,
https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/40/the-memoirs-of-sherlock-holmes...
"You’ve two horses in for the Wessex Cup—Silver Blaze and Bayard. Let me have the straight tip and you won’t be a loser. Is it a fact that at the weights Bayard could give the other a hundred yards in five furlongs, and that the stable have put their money on him?’..."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2019-12-08 17:08:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

As I said, on first reading I'd have agreed with the WordRef answers that Bayard is the better horse but it's clear from looking at context that Silver Blaze will be the one handicapped.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2019-12-08 17:15:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

More relevent context
Silver Blaze," ...holds as brilliant a record as his famous ancestor. ..and has brought in turn each of the prizes of the turf to Colonel Ross, ...Up to the time of the catastrophe he was the first favourite for the Wessex Cup, the betting being three to one on him. He has always, however, been a prime favourite with the racing public, and has never yet disappointed them, so that even at those odds enormous sums of money have been laid upon him.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2019-12-08 18:44:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Yes, it's obvious the asker (Simpson) wants Silver Blaze to lose in this line and must have heard a rumour (or been told) that the trainer (Straker) intended to nobble the horse himself (cut it), or have someone else do it, which was why the stable boy was drugged

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2019-12-08 18:48:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

the odds on Bayard would have been MUCH better (so much more to win), and certainly better than 5 to 4 on, as it was not the favourite.
Note from asker:
It's also stated, however, that the person saying this line has registered a large bet against Silver Blaze. He had a interest in Silver Blaze losing, and may have believed that there were reasons Silver Blaze would lose.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : there is nothing "contradictory" if you simply take your information "à la source" - get hold of the full text of this story - and interpret it correctly / apply basics of game theory (valid even if it wasn't called that in Conan Doyle's time)
1 day 3 hrs
I DID READ THE STORY. Where do you think I got the context from I posted??? Why don't you read it instead of talking rubbish or is that beyond your capabilities?
Something went wrong...
1 day 1 hr

In a five-furlong race, Bayard would win even if the other horse started 100 yards ahead.

give the other a hundred yards => In a five-furlong race, Bayard would win even if the other horse started 100 yards ahead.

https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/at-the-weights-bayar...
Peer comment(s):
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : No, read the full story. Bayard is the horse getting a headstart//Asker already gave that link which contradicts other link he gave
8 hrs
IYO ??
agree Daryo : that is exactly the intended meaning - recognising that it's ONLY A SUPPOSITION on which the question was based shouldn't require some super-strength advanced reading skills.
9 hrs
thank you
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 day 10 hrs
Reference:

Straight from the horse's mouth

...
“‘Good-evening,’ said he, looking through the window. ‘I wanted to have a word with you.’ The girl has sworn that as he spoke she noticed the corner of the little paper packet protruding from his closed hand.
“‘What business have you here?’ asked the lad.
“‘It’s business that may put something into your pocket,’ said the other. ‘You’ve two horses in for the Wessex Cup—Silver Blaze and Bayard. Let me have the straight tip and you won’t be a loser. Is it a fact that at the weights Bayard could give the other a hundred yards in five furlongs, and that the stable have put their money on him?’
“‘So, you’re one of those damned touts!’ cried the lad. ‘I’ll show you how we serve them in King’s Pyland.’ He sprang up and rushed across the stable to unloose the dog.
...
the question:

"Is it a fact that at the weights Bayard could give the other a hundred yards in five furlongs, and that the stable have put their money on him?"

is asked by someone who appeared in the middle of the night out of nowhere and is trying to get insider information from the stable boy keeping watch over the two racing horses.

This Bayard horse is probably less well know than Silver Blaze, and if it was true that it's a better racing horse than the obvious favorite, betting on Bayard would be very profitable (thus the offer of money for the insider tip).

So the way the question was asked implies that this horse Bayard is supposed to be far better than the favorite Silver Blaze.

No ambiguity of any kind about that whatsoever.

BTW in "the stable have put their money on him", the "stable" is not a reference to the stable boys betting, but to the whole operation / the business that owns / trains the horse.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 10 hrs (2019-12-09 22:45:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

also

"the stable have put their money on him"

could mean ONLY that "him" / Bayard is supposed to be the better racing horse - no one sane would bet on an expected loser.

Again, where is the ambiguity?
Peer comments on this reference comment:
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : totally misunderstood what is actually happening.
16 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 day 5 hrs
Reference:

From The Baker Street Journal

Simpson, seeking on this occasion a tip concerning the two horses Colonel Ross had entered in the Wessex "Cup" (sic), posed the following question to young Ned Hunter, the stableboy on watch that evening: "Is it a fact that at the weights Bayard could give the other a hundred yards in five furlongs, and that the stable have put their money on him?"
Note carefully the italicized words. The inference is clear: Bayard was getting weight from Silver Blaze, enough to offer the possibility that he (Bayard) could defeat his more illustrious stable-mate at the mile and five furlongs to be run, even after giving Silver Blaze a head start of a hundred yards in five furlongs. If Simpson had omitted these three key words, the inference would have been that Bayard was far superior to Silver Blaze at equal weights, an impossibility according to the adventure. Weight, however, has long been known as "the great equalizer" in turf circles, and only by receiving a substantial reduction in the poundage he had to carry could Bayard have hoped to be competitive with "the most remarkable horse in England”.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=23crAQAAIAAJ&q="silver b...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 2 hrs (2019-12-10 14:45:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Bayard was getting weight from Silver Blaze

The Language of Horse Racing By Gerald Hammond

Give - A horse gives weight to another when it carries more weight: 'Desert Orchid ... gave two stone and an eight length beating to Delius' (Sporting Life 5 June 1990).
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bc0GDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT98&lpg...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : Bayard is NOT giving Silver Blaze a headstart! It's the other way round. SB is carrying the weights as the favourite so Bayard can get the headstart. Read the full story//of course I did! Your contention is contradictory. I never said B is favourite!
4 hrs
Hello Yvonne. Did you actually read the text of my link? The author is attempting to clarify the meaning of this passage and to explain how and why it might be misunderstood. Nowhere is it stated that Bayard is the favourite.
agree Daryo : the question asked was based on the ***supposition*** that "Bayard is so good that it should be the one giving Silver Blaze a headstart" / Making the difference between a hypothetical situation and the reality shouldn't be so complicated ..
4 hrs
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search