Apr 26, 2020 07:41
4 yrs ago
57 viewers *
French term

à maille départementale

French to English Bus/Financial Business/Commerce (general) Public administration
The full sentence is as follows:
La MSA est organisée en 35 caisses locales, pour l’essentiel interdépartementales, issues de la fusion en 2010 de 84 caisses à maille départementale.

MSA is Mutualite Sociale Agricole. The text is a French Audit Office report on the entity which serves farmers and their employees social security affairs.

Discussion

Johannes Gleim May 1, 2020:
@ Andrew One question: You wrote to me: 'Thanks Johannes a lot of work here.' and to other peers and me: 'I think that the word county/département both word. Actually my main doubt was how to translate 'maille' which effectively is redundant and you covered this at the top.'

What term did you use at the end?
Howard Sugar Apr 26, 2020:
Might you simply say something like "departmental fund offices" so the sentence would be something like "arising from the merger of 84 departamental fund offices"

Proposed translations

25 mins
Selected

county / local

"84 caisses à maille départementale" is in fact the network of "caisses" in France at county level (par département français).

I would suggest: "84 county offices" or "84 local offices" as a translation.
If you want to use the French term "département", then you could say "84 French administrative department offices"
Note from asker:
I think that the word county/département both word. Actually my main doubt was hour to translate 'maille' which effectively is redundant
Peer comment(s):

neutral Tony M : I would avoid 'local', which tends to connote 'de proximité' and does not clearly express 'at département level'; and as explained in my own suggestion, I prefer to keep 'département' in FR.
2 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
5 hrs

departmental organization

Note from asker:
I think that the word county/département both work. I think also organized departmentally sould work but I want to avoid confusion between the usual meaning of department and the French word relating to a 'county'.Actually my main doubt was how to translate 'maille' which effectively is redundant
Peer comment(s):

neutral Tony M : Risky, as it sounds like how the 'departments' are 'organized', which is NOT what this is about.
41 mins
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+1
8 hrs
French term (edited): (caisses) à maille départementale

departmental social insurance (funds)

I searched first the « Caisse de MSA », it's aim and structure and found the official English term finally on official pages: « Agricultural Social Insurance (Fund) ». In the given context, « Maille » is redundant, need not to be circumscribed and can be omitted consequently.

La Mutualité Sociale Agricole (MSA) est l’organisme mutualiste qui gère le régime obligatoire de protection sociale du monde agricole et rural.
https://www.previssima.fr/lexique/mutualite-sociale-agricole...

1930: une mutualité sociale des agriculteurs (MSA)
La Mutualité sociale agricole a été créée en 1930 puis confirmée en 1947 comme gestionnaire du régime d’assurance maladie spécifique aux professions agricoles (exploitants et salariés).
https://institutions-professionnelles.fr/reperes/histoire/19...

La Mutualité sociale agricole (MSA) est le régime de protection sociale obligatoire des personnes salariées et non salariées des professions agricoles. Dans une approche « guichet unique », la MSA gère l'ensemble des branches de la sécurité sociale : maladie, famille, la vieillesse, accidents du travail et maladies professionnelles, mais également le recouvrement.
:
Le régime agricole, géré par la MSA, couvre plus de 5,4 millions de personnes, réparties entre le régime des salariés agricoles et le régime des non-salariés agricoles. La MSA est présente dans 35 caisses locales. La caisse centrale est située à Bobigny.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualité_sociale_agricole

Notions de « régime » et de « caisse »
Un « régime »
Un régime est un ensemble de droits et obligations réciproques des employés (et leurs « ayants droit », concrètement leur famille), des patrons, et d'une caisse de Sécurité sociale. Il recoupe un ensemble de prestations gérées par une organisation autonome. Le régime est généralement désigné par le nom de la caisse nationale qui assure sa gestion, ou au moins la coordination et la compensation des différents organismes ou institutions gestionnaires.
:
Une « caisse »
Les caisses sont les organismes gestionnaires et financiers qui matérialisent la « Sécu » en tant qu'institution. Pour des raisons historiques, chaque caisse est, sauf exception, liée à un unique régime. En revanche, à même régime dépendent de très nombreuses caisses.
:
Affiliation obligatoire
Toute personne en situation régulière et qui réside en France dépend obligatoirement d’un régime de sécurité sociale. On parle d’assujettissement, c'est-à-dire qu'elle est assujettie aux cotisations de Sécurité sociale correspondantes, à la CSG et à la CRDS.
:
Le régime social agricole comprend 17 000 salariés [] répartis dans 35 caisses locales et une caisse centrale (CCMSA) qui assure le pilotage du réseau au niveau national. Les caisses du régime social agricole sont, comme leurs homologues du régime général, des organismes de droit privé.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sécurité_sociale_en_France#Not...

Social security (in French: Sécurité Sociale) is divided by the French government into four branches: illness; old age/retirement; family; work accident; and occupational disease. From an institutional point of view, French social security is made up of diverse organisms. The system is divided into three main Regimes: the General Regime, the Farm Regime, and the Self-employed Regime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_security_in_France
(No much information about the MSA)

Selon la Mutualité sociale agricole (MSA), le taux de suicide parmi les agriculteurs français est particulièrement élevé, les producteurs laitiers et les éleveurs étant les groupes les plus touchés.
According to the agricultural social insurance MSA France, the suicide rate among French farmers is especially high - dairy farming and cattle breeding are the most affected sectors.
https://context.reverso.net/traduction/francais-anglais/Mutu...

CAISSE DE MUTUALITE SOCIALE AGRICOLE DE FRANCHE-COMTE
Full Name (English): Agricultural social insurance organisation of Franche Comté
Address 1:
13, avenue Elisée Cusenier
BESANCON Cedex 9 25090
France
https://webgate.ec.europa.eu/employment_social/social-securi...

In France, the Social security tribunal [1] (in French: tribunal des affaires de la sécurité sociale) rules on disputes between social security funds (caisses de sécurité sociale) and users, for example regarding membership of a fund or the award and payment of benefits.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_security_tribunal

A - Health, maternity and paternity insurance
Payers:
Health, maternity and paternity insurance benefits are provided by:
-> the local Health Insurance Funds (Caisses Primaires d'Assurance Maladie/ CPAM) in metropolitan France
-> the General Social Security Funds (Caisses générales de sécurité sociale/ CGSS) in France's Overseas Departments.
https://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_1.html

régime agricole: Caisse départementale de la mutualité sociale agricole.
scheme for agricultural workers: Departmental Social Insurance Mutual Fund.
|
a. prestations de l'assurance maladie maternité décès (capital) invalidité prestations familiales: Caisse départementale de mutualité sociale agricole.
a. Insurance benefits for sickness, maternity, death (lump sum payment), invalidity, family benefits: Caisse départementale de mutualité sociale agricole (Departmental Agricultural Mutual Assistance Fund).
https://context.reverso.net/traduction/francais-anglais/Cais...

Context translation:
La MSA est organisée en 35 caisses locales, pour l’essentiel interdépartementales, issues de la fusion en 2010 de 84 caisses à maille départementale.
=>
The MSA is organised into 35 local agencies, mostly interdepartmental, resulting from the merger in 2010 of 84 departmental social insurance funds.
Note from asker:
Thanks Johannes a lot of work here. I think that the word county/département both word. Actually my main doubt was how to translate 'maille' which effectively is redundant and you covered this at the top.
Peer comment(s):

agree GILLES MEUNIER
2 days 11 hrs
Merci !
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+2
3 hrs
French term (edited): caisses à maille départementale

individual / separate départemental bodies

When talking specifically about administration in France, I favour retaining the French terms, but preferably italicizing them, to indicate we are talking about the French system, rather than attempting to "localize" them into some more-or-less equivalent term.
These aren't really 'branches' or 'offices', since they are to a large extent independent and do not really "belong" to any one central organization — which is why I feel "bodies' best conveys their official natural; unlike in EN, the 'caisse' is both the 'fund', and also the body that adminsters it. In any case, in the specific context given, they don't need to be identified any more precisely, since we are already talking about them, and here, only their number and distribution is relevant.

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Note added at 1 day 6 hrs (2020-04-27 13:54:47 GMT)
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As so many people seem shocked by 'départemental', an alternative but much clumsier solution would be 'bodies at département level', which I've already suggested below in a response to a peer comment.

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Note added at 2 days 45 mins (2020-04-28 08:26:28 GMT)
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This could give you, e.g. "...resulting from the merger in 2010 of 84 separate bodies at département level"

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Note added at 5 days (2020-05-01 10:43:57 GMT) Post-grading
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Asker, I think 'county' is highly inadvisable, since it is a false localization attempt: a county in the UK and a county in the US are already quite different, and to the best of my knowledge, neither has much similarity with the administrative functions of the FR départements — BUT back-translating to 'comté', which of course dates back to the Ancien Régime, and is likely to cause puzzlement to a FR reader!
At worst, use 'department', which is at least an accurate and logical translation of the FR term — but requires care to avoid any possible confusion with internal 'departments' in e.g. an organization ('service' etc. in FR)
Note from asker:
I agree with Phil and Victoria. I think that the word county/département both word. Actually my main doubt was how to translate 'maille' which effectively is redundant
Peer comment(s):

agree Kim Metzger
1 hr
Thanks, Kim!
neutral philgoddard : You can leave "département" in French, though I don't see any reason not to anglicise it. But I think leaving "départementale" in French looks weird.
2 hrs
I didn't suggest that, Phil! It's a word that if people are showing in interest in FR admin affairs, they are going to encounter often; otherwise, to re-word around it gets clumsy: 'separate bodies for each département' etc.
neutral Victoria Britten : I agree about leaving "département" in French; much less happy about "départemental".
3 hrs
I think any reader on this subject would understand perfectly, it's not really worse than say 'Provençal'; else, as I said to Phil, it can be re-worded around, but gets clumsier — in my view, a worse problem, in the text as it stands..
neutral erwan-l : Same comment: not "départemental".
20 hrs
Then please see my second-choice alternative posted above.
neutral ph-b (X) : separate, département-level bodies ??
1 day 1 hr
I think making 'département-level' into a qualifier is slightly more awkward than my own alternative suggestion.
agree AllegroTrans : I would prefer separate, département-level bodies per ph-b
1 day 9 hrs
Thanks, C!
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Reference comments

7 mins
Reference:

à maillage départemental

ou à implantation départementale = implantation dans chaque département

https://www.lanouvellerepublique.fr/deux-sevres/aires-de-cov...

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Note added at 7 heures (2020-04-26 15:39:00 GMT)
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autre formulation possible : fusion des 84 caisses implantées par département.
Le piège de "départemental" anglicisé est ainsi évité !
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree writeaway
2 hrs
agree Tony M
3 hrs
agree AllegroTrans
1 day 12 hrs
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