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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

sans vouloir faire du droit

English translation:

without/while not wishing to venture into the legal field / while I cannot claim to be a lawyer...

Added to glossary by Charlotte Allen
May 21, 2020 20:57
3 yrs ago
51 viewers *
French term

faire du droit

French to English Law/Patents Law (general) Litigation
"Sans vouloir faire du droit, nous observons que la jurisprudence évolue depuis 2005 et pose une définition générale des grosses réparations."

This is from submissions by an expert to a French court - the expert is an engineer, appointed to determine whether certain work on a property constitutes minor repairs such as the tenant should be liable for, or major ones that the landlord must pay for. After setting out what the Code Civil says about these two types of repairs, he makes the comment above.

Would anybody care to suggest what precisely he's getting at with the phrase "Sans vouloir faire du droit"? Obviously he IS commenting on legal matters, but doesn't want to overstep the bounds.

How could this be translated? I'm thinking along the lines of "Without wishing to go too deeply into the law..." but maybe that's an overtranslation. And perhaps there's some nuance that I'm missing in the word "faire"?

Thanks in advance!
Proposed translations (English)
4 +5 while not wanting to venture into the legal field
4 +4 (without wishing) to state the law/without wishing to be a lawyer
4 +4 while I cannot claim / make no claim to be a lawyer
3 practicing law
3 decide the ultimate legal issue
3 -1 create new law
2 ...without resorting to [the] legalese...
3 -2 to study or dictate the law / to make an important decision

Discussion

Charlotte Allen (asker) May 24, 2020:
Thanks everybody! Great discussion and some useful suggestions here. A heartfelt thank you to every person who took the time to suggest an answer - even suggestions that seem a little off-base can be helpful in getting closer to the author's intended meaning. I'm always especially happy when a lively debate ensues and yet remains civil and respectful! A little kindness goes a long way, especially in these times...
Mpoma May 22, 2020:
@AllegroTrans On your point, I agree about rendering informality, but ambiguity is usually trickier. In this particular case I suggest we face a bit of a problem just in the fact that faire covers both "make" and "do"... "make law", "do law"... hmmm
AllegroTrans May 22, 2020:
@ Mpoma Your comment "the French expression is so informal/throwaway that it is quite ambiguous". That being the case, why should the translation be a formal, tightly-worded rendition? Surely the informality should be retained in the translation?
Daryo May 21, 2020:
All this expert is saying is that since 2005 French courts have established thought their decisions a clearer definition of what are "major repairs", nothing more than a statement of facts regarding the evolution of the concept of "major repairs".

Can't see the slightest hint that this expert would want to indulge in "creating law".

https://www.legalplace.fr/guides/article-606-bail-commercial...
mrrafe May 21, 2020:
Why worry about 2005? In other words, the engineer is worried about how to rationalize away the 2005 codification. If they were worried about discussing law at all, they would have no reason to discuss 2005.
mrrafe May 21, 2020:
Common vs. civil law Never having practiced civil law, this is just a guess. However, the main conceptual differerence between the medieval English common law system which now governs much of the world and the Roman Law system exemplified in 1805 by the Napoleonic Code, now the Civil Code, is that common law is an accretion of legislation and interpretive court decisions by judges whereas civil law is a comprehensively written prescription designed to resolve all foreseeable issues. Judge-made common law addresses only actual individual conflicts in terms possibly useful as precedent in subsequent, imperfectly analogous situations. In theory at least, common law courts studiously avoid pronouncing law for future hypothetical cases.

So I think the engineer is saying they don't want to perhaps "declare," "prescribe," "pronounce," "enunciate" law by deviating from the preexisting Code but they must nevertheless concede that the law has evolved away from the most recently written version of the Code provisions. At least this is my common law notion of how Code practitioners would struggle to accommodate new realities.

Proposed translations

+5
16 mins
French term (edited): sans vouloir faire du droit
Selected

while not wanting to venture into the legal field

This expert is an expert when it comes to building work, not an expert in legal matters.

Sans vouloir faire du droit = I wouldn't want to start acting as a legal expert, (literally: I wouldn't want to do "legal")

101% sure about the meaning, OTOH could be expressed in many different ways.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2020-05-21 22:19:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

while not wanting to venture into the legal field, I would still want to remind that ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2020-05-21 23:00:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"faire du droit" as used in this text is the same pattern as "faire de la voile" "faire de la restauration" "faire de la peinture/du violon" etc ...
Note from asker:
This is very nicely expressed and I think approaches the expert's meaning.
This was closest to what I used in the end. Thanks
Peer comment(s):
agree Adrian MM. : without wanting to stray into the law - but there is a different way of expressing this in the Anglo-Irish-Am. law of evidence....
2 hrs
Thanks!
agree Yvonne Gallagher : yes, this is the meaning
13 hrs
Thanks!
agree Eliza Hall : This works. It's exactly what he means ("I'm not a lawyer, but I am aware that the legal landscape has shifted since 2005 in XYZ respect...").
19 hrs
Thanks!
agree tradu-grace : This is the right rendering of the French into EN in this very context. Grace
1 day 13 hrs
Thanks!
agree erwan-l
1 day 19 hrs
Thanks!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+4
1 hr

(without wishing) to state the law/without wishing to be a lawyer

Expert witnesses are under a very high duty of impartiality. Therefore they cannot make statements of law. This expert witness seems to be summarising the law as it relate to tenant repairs, so he makes it clear that he is not stating what the law is - obviously that's the remit of the Judge/Judges hearing the case.
Note from asker:
Yes, I also feel this is the broad meaning of his statement.
I also asked myself whether he was in fact talking about 'making new law' (in the sense 'hard cases make bad law', and in the sense that jurisprudence 'makes' law, yes, even in legal systems with extensive codification, like France!). But honestly, having thought about this further and looking at the document as a whole, I don't really think that's his intended meaning. I think he's providing an overview of the statute and the caselaw to give background to his report, and he wants to make clear that he's only doing this for context, not because he suddenly thinks he's a lawyer. But I do very much appreciate where you are coming from and the time you've put into this!
Sorry, the second note above was intended for Mrrafe
Peer comment(s):
agree Daryo : without wishing to be a lawyer - works also.
25 mins
thank you
agree Yvonne Gallagher
12 hrs
agree Eliza Hall : Yes, that's exactly what he's saying, though I prefer Daryo's and Joshua's turns of phrase.
18 hrs
agree erwan-l
1 day 18 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
48 mins

create new law

Please see 1st discussion entry

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2020-05-21 22:22:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Daryo, I understand your interpretation but still find mine more credible. if's a question of the engineer's intent with "faire," left debatable in this quote. I've presented many engineer witnesses and if this one felt they were trespassing into law, their testimony would have been more convincing had they not raised that suggestion at all but just claimed the 2005 provisions are obsolete. Alternatively they could have used more articulate language to disavow legal expertise if that was their point. Asker probably can better discern the engineer's strategy and meaning if she has access to the testimony as a whole, including any cross examination.
Note from asker:
Yes, I also asked myself whether he was in fact talking about 'making new law' (in the sense 'hard cases make bad law', and in the sense that jurisprudence 'makes' law, yes, even in legal systems with extensive codification, like France!). But honestly, having thought about this further and looking at the document as a whole, I don't really think that's his intended meaning. I think he's providing an overview of the statute and the caselaw to give background to his report, and he wants to make clear that he's only doing this for context, not because he suddenly thinks he's a lawyer. But I do very much appreciate where you are coming from and the time you've put into this!I also feel this is the broad meaning of his statement.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : you got a wrong meaning of "faire" - this expert is not talking of "making new laws" but "doing(=practicing) law", i.e. acting as a lawyer// there is just about 2 pages in small print of various meanings of "faire" in Le Petit Robert...
12 mins
agree Mpoma : yes
39 mins
Thank you. We shall see (or not)
disagree Eliza Hall : As Daryo says, he's talking about practicing law, not making law.
19 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

practicing law

"Sans vouloir faire du droit=Without wanting to go into law
Peer comment(s):
neutral Eliza Hall : That is what it means, though not the turn of phrase I would choose in EN. Daryo's and Joshua's turns of phrase are better.
17 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

decide the ultimate legal issue

I think this is how the idea would be expressed in the Anglo-Am. law of evidence: experts are not - in certain US Federal States but, contrary a long tradition, now are in E&W - allowed to speculate or 'pontificate on the ultimate issue'......
Example sentence:

The position under English law is different from that in the United States as there is no rule preventing an expert from giving an opinion on the 'ultimate issue' in E&W. This has been confirmed by the English Courts in both criminal and *civil* cases.

Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_issue_(law)

Peer comment(s):
agree Mpoma : Yes. The problem is that the French expression is so informal/throwaway that it is quite ambiguous. But on balance this seems the most sensible interpretation.
10 hrs
Merci and thanks - a slight problem is to wit that an ultimate issue is often one of 'fact', like insanity, rather than of 'law'.
neutral AllegroTrans : This may well be what the expert effectively meant, but he clearly didn't use such a precise phrase; I thinl the informality needs to be retained
13 hrs
Yes. You are right. I introduced the term of art of 'ultimate issue' mainly for information and educational purposes---
disagree Eliza Hall : Your comments are correct (experts can't do this, etc.), but that's not what this expert is talking about, so the translation is incorrect.
16 hrs
... in your opinion on the ultimate issue - that ought to have occurred on the asker's formulation of her question: ' Obviously he IS commenting on legal matters, but doesn't want to overstep the bounds.'
Something went wrong...
-2
18 hrs

to study or dictate the law / to make an important decision

I believe that the person speaking wishes to avoid making an important decision or judgement.
Example sentence:

Sans vouloir faire du droit nous observons que la jurisprudence évolue depuis 2005 et (elle) pose une définition générale des grosses réparations.

One wishes to avoid studying or stipulating the law by making an important decision, yet it's observed that jurisprudence has been evolving since 2005 and it contains a general definition (code of practice) on major repairs.

Peer comment(s):
disagree Eliza Hall : No, he's just saying although he's not a lawyer, he is aware that certain legal rules have evolved since 2005. He's not talking about making a decision, just about the degree to which he, as a non-lawyer, can accurately speak of that evolution.
1 hr
disagree AllegroTrans : He clearly HAS studied the law on this subject and he is making it clear that it's the Court's remit to apply it and to make a decision, and not his
1 day 22 hrs
Something went wrong...
+4
2 hrs

while I cannot claim / make no claim to be a lawyer

Given the context, I think this could work and still sounds natural.
As you say, he clearly IS commenting on legal matters, and as an expert to the court has been appointed to do so, but is still hedging his words.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2020-05-22 16:57:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Correction/Clarification: He was of course appointed to comment on building work, not legal matters. The translation still stands, though.
FWIW, and in response to some of the other answers proposed here, I don't think "faire" can be construed as "make" here (as in "make law"), nor do I think "faire du droit" is particularly informal. Not formal, certainly, but I think a standard/neutral register would do.
Note from asker:
Another really great suggestion, too many good options here!
I really liked this suggestion; kind of wish I could split the points on this question, as I'm planning to incorporate your suggestion in a glossary entry. In the end what I submitted was closest to Daryo's suggestion, though. Thanks anyway!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Daryo : the translation could work BUT your explanation doesn't hold water: this expert WASN'T appointed to comment on legal matters but on building work
7 hrs
Yes, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out.
agree SafeTex : I think this is what is it in essence. He did his report as an engineer in relation to a pont of law. He cannot dissassociate the two but he cannot speak as a legal expert either.
9 hrs
Thanks.
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : Your explanation is wrong
11 hrs
agree writeaway
15 hrs
Thanks.
agree Eliza Hall : This works. He's just saying (to paraphrase) "I'm not a lawyer, but I am aware that the legal horizon has changed since 2005..."
17 hrs
Yes - that's how I read it, too. Thanks.
agree Mpoma : Yes, I'm convinced. "Sans vouloir..." is just a common colloquial expression (though I'd say pretty informal), used here to mean "may I just say, incidentally, ...".
19 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 day 4 hrs

...without resorting to [the] legalese...

...or maybe "while avoiding /sidestepping"...either way would simplify and shorten the target term...
Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : I think using the word 'legalese' confuses the issue
1 day 12 hrs
Something went wrong...
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