Steffen Walter Aug 28, 2020:

Phonetics What is more, if you pronounce "Kehrets" with very short vowels (or "swallow" them), it comes very close to "(Ge)krätz".

Steffen Walter Aug 28, 2020:

And this one, too https://books.google.de/books?id=z8oEAAAAMAAJ&q=pforzheim ge...

Steffen Walter Aug 28, 2020:

The 19th century reference ... ... I've just cited does point to the two terms being synonymous, though (note the brackets).

Chris Pr Aug 28, 2020:

I'm not assuming anything, just stating facts.
The *real* assumption, however, was that the two terms are synonymous -> which they clearly are not.
'...oder vom Arbeitsplatz „Abgekratzten“ zurückgewannen."
https://dict.leo.org/german-english/gekratzt

Steffen Walter Aug 28, 2020:

@ Chris Are you still assuming that "Gekrätz" and "Kehrets" refer to two different things (i.e. that they are not synonyms)? I don't think so - see https://archive.org/stream/amtlicherberich00weltgoog/amtlich...
("Aus den Abgängen, wie Gekrätz (Kehrets), Waschwasser, Polirlumpen etc., ...").

Chris Pr Aug 27, 2020:

No doubt that these terms have morphed over the years, but in the historical context cited (Ab 1820) only Alison's reference now seems the more convincing.
As to how the asker would like to address, '...vom Arbeitsplatz „Abgekratzt"...'...?

Alison MacG Aug 26, 2020:

Ein Gespräch mit Georg Steiner, Geschäftsleitung Heimerle + Meule GmbH

„Kehrets- oder Gekrätz-Anstalten“ waren einst Werkstätten, die kleinste Partikel und Reste von Edelmetallen aus dem auf dem Boden „Zusammengekehrten“ oder vom Arbeitsplatz „Abgekratzten“ zurückgewannen.
https://evt-gmbh.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/EVT-INTERVIEW...

Chris Foster Aug 26, 2020:

This from a metal recycling company:https://www.mk-edelmetall.de/edelmetallrecycling/gekraetz/
"Gekrätz

Als Gekrätz bezeichnet man eine Mischung aus diversen festen Stoffen, die organisch und metallisch, sowie edel- und nicht edelmetallisch sein können. Durch diese Vermischung ist die Konzentration an Feinmetallen geringer als in Scheidgut oder galvanischen Abfällen. Einige Beispiele sind:

Bodenkehricht

Schlämme und Schlacken

Polier- und Filterabfälle

Um sowohl die anfallenden Kosten zu decken als auch eine möglichst große Menge an Edelmetall wiederzugewinnen, ist eine längerfristige Sammlung der Abfälle ratsam. Hierzu stellen wir Ihnen kostenlos Behälter zur Verfügung."- which supports Jennifer's point about it being used as a catch-all for both dross or slag, as well for the floor sweepings and waste from various metal production processes.

Jennifer Caisley Aug 26, 2020:

So, in short, I wonder if the term "Gekraetz" is a bit of a catch-all that can be used to refer both to the liquid waste ("dross") and the solid waste ("sweepings")? Of course, how you translate it here depends on whether you read the sentence as positioning "Gekraetz" as simply a synonym, or as representing a different facet of production waste from "Kehrets" - and that is grammatically ambiguous, at least!

I'm hoping that a metallurgy expert might pop up to add some clarity!

Jennifer Caisley Aug 26, 2020:

It's a bit odd - there seem to be multiple definitions of "Gekraetz" floating around out there, half of which are clearly about sweepings or other solid stuff, and half of which are about more liquid forms.

E.g. Duden is very clear that it's about liquid metal ("dünne, vor dem Guss abzuziehende Schicht aus Legierungen und Schlacke auf geschmolzenem Metall" - hence my "dross"), as is another online encyclopaedia ("Abfälle von Metallschmelzen, meist aus Gelbgießereien, mit reichlichen Mengen nutzbarer Metalloxide." - https://www.wissen.de/lexikon/gekraetz).

Conversely, some are very clear that it's more in the "sweepings" direction (e.g. "Mit viel Nichtmetall verunreinigtes edelmetallhaltiges Material, welches vor dem Schmelzen einer weiteren Aufarbeitung bedarf. Bsp.: Bodenkehrricht, Schliff-, Polier-, Filter-, Tiegelrückstände und Einbettmassen." - https://www.bruno-welz.de/index.php/recycling.html)

[cont.]

Chris Pr Aug 26, 2020:

It's unclear where the dividing line is between, "...distinguishing between waste as a result of a production process,and the dross or slag in the smelting process."
Even @philgoddard states in his explanation, "Kehrets is...clearly derived from "zusammenkehren", to sweep together...".
And Jennifer has derived 'dross' from the same Hafner blog you're saying should be read as 'sweepings'...?

Chris Foster Aug 25, 2020:

@Jennifer Caisley-Hafner Blog Reading the Hafner blog "Edelmetall Recycling: Der Unterschied zwischen Scheidgut und Gekrätz"- it is clear that he is talking about "sweepings". Interestingly, my Richard Ernst "Wörterbuch der Industriellen Technik" gives dross, refuse and slag for Gekrätz, as terms in metallurgy. I think here it is "sweepings"- and that in this case English is distinguishing between waste as a result of a production process,and the dross or slag in the smelting process.

Chris Pr Aug 25, 2020:

I don't believe the two terms are synonymous, but two distinct forms of waste material viable for processing.
Skimmings (see CF's comment) and sweepings respectively, meaning skimmed with the molten surface slag and swept (literally) from the refinery's or external industries' floors.

Jennifer Caisley Aug 25, 2020:

Good question! I'm honestly not sure! The lengthy blog I linked to says this: "Gekrätz – das Wort leitet sich von Kehrets, sog. Zusammengekehrtem ab – wird dagegen im ersten Schritt in einem Veraschungsofen thermisch behandelt, bis alles frei von brennbaren Materialien ist.", which suggests there is a link between the two, at the very least!

Marc Svetov (asker) Aug 25, 2020:

Dross gold I thought it might be dross gold as well. Does it seem that Gekrätz or Kehrets are actually the same thing? That there are not actually two words for the stuff in English like there appear to be in German?