Oct 26, 2021 18:38
2 yrs ago
47 viewers *
French term
United Kingdom
Fixation des honoraires
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
ruling regarding non payment of lawyers fees
I've got two instances of this. The context is a ruling by the a Bar Association, following a complaint by a barrister that a client hasn't paid their fees.
The first example is the name of the service itself: Fixation des honoraires - I intend to use Fee Dispute Resolution Service
https://www.avocatparis.org/services-de-l-ordre/fixation-des...
The second example is: "the company ................a saisi Monsieur le Batonnier d'une demande en fixation des honoraires"
I am going to use "the company submitted an application.....[blah blah] to the President of the Bar Association to resolve a dispute regarding fees"
Or is there an official translation? thanks
The first example is the name of the service itself: Fixation des honoraires - I intend to use Fee Dispute Resolution Service
https://www.avocatparis.org/services-de-l-ordre/fixation-des...
The second example is: "the company ................a saisi Monsieur le Batonnier d'une demande en fixation des honoraires"
I am going to use "the company submitted an application.....[blah blah] to the President of the Bar Association to resolve a dispute regarding fees"
Or is there an official translation? thanks
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+3
4 hrs
Eliza Hall
United States
United States
Native in English
Specializes in field
United States
Lawyer-Translator-Certified Interpreter
Native in: English (Variants: British, UK, US, Scottish, Canadian, Irish)
Works in: French to English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
145
Selected
(petition/request to) determine the fees owed
Une demande en fixation des honoraires is filed by a lawyer whose client hasn't paid her, and it asks the President of the Bar to determine the fees that the client owes the lawyer.
https://www.aga-france.fr/actualites-aga/avocats/demande-de-...
Since it's a formal and presumably written legal request, I would call it a request or a petition.
"Fixation" can mean setting, but usually fees are "set" by the person or organization you pay the fees too. A lawyer decides what their hourly rate is; a court decides what the filing fee is for filing a certain type of document; an expert witness sets their own fees; etc.
Since this phrase refers to a third party resolving a fee dispute between a lawyer and a client, I would say "determining" instead, and add the word "owed" (so "determine the fees owed").
Bâtonnier is variously translated as President or Chair of the Bar (or of the Bar Association); or as just "the Bar" (le Bâtonnier de Paris = the Paris Bar). Here's what it means, legally: https://www.dictionnaire-juridique.com/definition/batonnier....
I wouldn't use "Bar Association" here because it's confusing, or potentially misleading. A US bar association is a combination of a lobbying group (advocating for legal rules that help lawyers), a social group (networking opportunities etc.), and an educational group (validating and sometimes directly providing continuing education courses).
A US bar association would never have anything to do with disputes between a lawyer and their client. Those disputes just go straight to court, or small-claims court if the amount owed is small enough.
So here, since we're dealing with a system that works differently than the US system, I would just say "the President of the Bar" (i.e., NOT "of the Bar Association"). That's a made-up title, but it clearly means someone with some sort of authority over the legal profession, but it doesn't correspond to an actual job or position in US law--so it doesn't make the reader wonder, "What the heck is the president of the bar association doing overseeing a fee dispute?!"
https://www.aga-france.fr/actualites-aga/avocats/demande-de-...
Since it's a formal and presumably written legal request, I would call it a request or a petition.
"Fixation" can mean setting, but usually fees are "set" by the person or organization you pay the fees too. A lawyer decides what their hourly rate is; a court decides what the filing fee is for filing a certain type of document; an expert witness sets their own fees; etc.
Since this phrase refers to a third party resolving a fee dispute between a lawyer and a client, I would say "determining" instead, and add the word "owed" (so "determine the fees owed").
Bâtonnier is variously translated as President or Chair of the Bar (or of the Bar Association); or as just "the Bar" (le Bâtonnier de Paris = the Paris Bar). Here's what it means, legally: https://www.dictionnaire-juridique.com/definition/batonnier....
I wouldn't use "Bar Association" here because it's confusing, or potentially misleading. A US bar association is a combination of a lobbying group (advocating for legal rules that help lawyers), a social group (networking opportunities etc.), and an educational group (validating and sometimes directly providing continuing education courses).
A US bar association would never have anything to do with disputes between a lawyer and their client. Those disputes just go straight to court, or small-claims court if the amount owed is small enough.
So here, since we're dealing with a system that works differently than the US system, I would just say "the President of the Bar" (i.e., NOT "of the Bar Association"). That's a made-up title, but it clearly means someone with some sort of authority over the legal profession, but it doesn't correspond to an actual job or position in US law--so it doesn't make the reader wonder, "What the heck is the president of the bar association doing overseeing a fee dispute?!"
Note from asker:
| ps I chose this because it's the most straight forward and easy to understand |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Steve Robbie
: Clear, unambiguous translation. Asker's own suggestion slightly rephrases the text, whereas this obviates the need for that.
9 hrs
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Thanks.
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| agree |
Conor McAuley
10 hrs
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Thanks.
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
15 hrs
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Thanks.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks and to everybody else for their help"
-2
47 mins
Bokani Hart
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Human Rights, Energy and Sustainable Dev
Native in: English (Variants: British, UK)
Works in: French to English, English to French, English, and 1 more.
Pricing
Answer inspired by the following:
https://www.lambchambers.co.uk/about-us/fees-and-pricing/
https://www.jasonelliottbarristers.co.uk/fees-and-pricing
https://lawyerist.com/client-service/pricing/#h-alternative-...
https://www.lambchambers.co.uk/about-us/fees-and-pricing/
https://www.jasonelliottbarristers.co.uk/fees-and-pricing
https://lawyerist.com/client-service/pricing/#h-alternative-...
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
AllegroTrans
: No, it's not about pricing, more about reassessing ("taxing" in pld legal parlance)
3 hrs
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| disagree |
Andrew Bramhall
: Pricing is wrong in this context;
3 hrs
|
1 hr
To determine the fee
As your web reference to Avocats Barreau Paris says, the batonnier is only legally mandated to determine the amount of the fee.
Note from asker:
| thanks Joseph. However, the decision/ruling ends by condemning the company to pay the fees. It's rather confusing because it looks like a arbitration service but the language is very formal just like a regular court ruling |
| And also, I think that the mission says that the batonnier is the only person allowed to rule in these cases (rather than only able to rule on fees). That's how I read it anyway, thanks |
+1
2 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Specializes in field
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: British, Scottish) 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
359
Ordered-costs fees assessment
I don't think fee-'fixing', as with UK public aka private school cartels, is the way to go.
Notes:
1. taxing of costs and fees used to be the pre-1998 civil justice terminology in E+W where a Solicitor's bill of costs or 'fee note' would be automatically *taxed off* so reduced one-third, by a 'Taxing Master' > now 'Costs Assessor' .
2. Lord Woolf's reforms changed the terminology in E+W to assessment of costs and fees.
3. "the company submitted an ordered costs application.....[blah blah] to the President > Chair of the Bar Association".
4. condemning > ordering the company to pay the fees. I haven't seen a London High Court ruling - on our High Street Solicitors' bidding - 'condemning the litigants in the costs' for half a century.
5. if the fees are re-assessed, they form part of the 'ordered costs' and have to be coughed up.
6. Low cofidence level as the pre-1998 terminology e.g. taxation costs is still used by Old-School Practitioners in the UK.
Notes:
1. taxing of costs and fees used to be the pre-1998 civil justice terminology in E+W where a Solicitor's bill of costs or 'fee note' would be automatically *taxed off* so reduced one-third, by a 'Taxing Master' > now 'Costs Assessor' .
2. Lord Woolf's reforms changed the terminology in E+W to assessment of costs and fees.
3. "the company submitted an ordered costs application.....[blah blah] to the President > Chair of the Bar Association".
4. condemning > ordering the company to pay the fees. I haven't seen a London High Court ruling - on our High Street Solicitors' bidding - 'condemning the litigants in the costs' for half a century.
5. if the fees are re-assessed, they form part of the 'ordered costs' and have to be coughed up.
6. Low cofidence level as the pre-1998 terminology e.g. taxation costs is still used by Old-School Practitioners in the UK.
Example sentence:
COM fr fixation concertée d'honoraire COM en concerted fixing of fees
In an ordered costs (party/party) application a Costs Assessor will issue a certificate of determination of the fair and reasonable amount of costs to be paid as the result of a court or tribunal order.
Note from asker:
| Thanks for your help. As I was condemned on this point, I followed your instructions and changed president to chair, and condemned to ordered. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
AllegroTrans
: Right idea and best answer so far but no need to be Anglocentric here
1 hr
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Thanks, Chris. It's interesting that a US American answer has been answered with a totally different spin on Bar Assoc. At least I never referred to the Bar Council in Central London.
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| neutral |
Andrew Bramhall
: Dubious answer yet again, but the confidence level is about right;
1 hr
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Well, you - as a non-lawyer - have learned at least three new terms, such as ordered costs, taxing master and taxation of costs + fees. BTW, you may be dubious, but it is the answer that is doubtful.
|
2 hrs
Francois Boye
United States
United States
Native in French
United States
An economic geek with social skills
Native in: French 
Works in: English to French, French to English, Spanish to English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
104
fixing of fees
Price fixing is an anticompetitive agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product, service, or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand.
Source: Wikipedia
Source: Wikipedia
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: nothing at all to do with markets!! it's about lawyers' fees
36 mins
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The Bar Association is a monopoly that fixes fees instead of allowing the market to determine which fees it can bear.
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3 hrs
Andrew Bramhall
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
Flair and accuracy tailored to your text
Native in: English
Works in: Spanish to English, German to English
Related KudoZ points
:
40
Fee setting
5 fee-setting strategies for creatives - Wishu
https://wishu.io/5-fee-setting-strategies-for-creatives
22/09/2020 · 5 fee-setting strategies for creatives. by Wishu. 22 September 2020 “How I set my prices, in the beginning, was simple, I guessed.” ...
Fees and Charges strategy - South Kesteven
www.southkesteven.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=14614&p=0 · PDF file
Adopting a more commercial approach to fee setting . There are a number of ways the Council can promote a more commercial approach to fee setting. Specifically these are: Trading – the Council can...
Strategy for Setting Consultant Fees | Consulting Success
https://www.consultingsuccess.com/best-strategy-for-setting-...
Set your consulting fees as a monthly retainer. This means billing them each month on an agreed to price. And I recommend billing them at the beginning of each month for that month’s work. Yes, it’s pre-payment and it’s good! How To Make This Happen There are a few keys to making this happen:
Estimated Reading Time: 4 mins
https://wishu.io/5-fee-setting-strategies-for-creatives
22/09/2020 · 5 fee-setting strategies for creatives. by Wishu. 22 September 2020 “How I set my prices, in the beginning, was simple, I guessed.” ...
Fees and Charges strategy - South Kesteven
www.southkesteven.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=14614&p=0 · PDF file
Adopting a more commercial approach to fee setting . There are a number of ways the Council can promote a more commercial approach to fee setting. Specifically these are: Trading – the Council can...
Strategy for Setting Consultant Fees | Consulting Success
https://www.consultingsuccess.com/best-strategy-for-setting-...
Set your consulting fees as a monthly retainer. This means billing them each month on an agreed to price. And I recommend billing them at the beginning of each month for that month’s work. Yes, it’s pre-payment and it’s good! How To Make This Happen There are a few keys to making this happen:
Estimated Reading Time: 4 mins
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: None of your refs. relate to lawyers' fees and it's not about "setting" the fees (where disputed), it's about reviewing them//asker says it's a complain that fees have not been paid, ergo they have already been "set"
9 mins
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Fee setting doesn't necessarily imply dispute settling as you appear to be suggesting, sorry.
|
-1
9 hrs
Gladis Audi, DipTrans
Netherlands
Netherlands
Native in French
Specializes in field
Netherlands
EN>FR Int Org/Dev/Coop, Legal
Native in: French (Variant: Standard-France)
Works in: English to French, French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Establishment of fees
This is what I would use.
Example sentence:
Appendix J – Selection process and establishment of fees for consulting and professional services
Establishment of fees (see article 16.5 of the Contracting Policy Guidelines)
Discussion
Fair enough but just for the record in E&W the situation is different. Here if a barrister cannot obtain payment from a solicitor instructing him/her the Bar Council can be approached which can issue a direction to withdraw credit from the solicitors, meaning barristers cannot accept instructions from them unless the case is publicly funded or paid up front. In addition, if a barrister cannot get payment from a private client, the Bar Council offers a debt recovery service.
Personally, I would put "Department" for "Service", on the basis that "service" is a faux ami, otherwise office, section, etc. People have before and will again disagree on that though, and validly so.