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biens agréables pour le confort de l’existence
MEAD

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

revenus issus du capital autre que d’agrément

English translation:

other than recreational investment income

Added to glossary by Adrian MM.
Jun 15, 2022 16:45
1 yr ago
29 viewers *
French term

revenus d'agrément

French to English Law/Patents Law (general)
Marriage contract.

"Facultés contributives des époux


Les facultés contributives des époux sont constituées de leurs revenus d’activité (salaires, revenus professionnels, droits d’auteur redevances de brevets etc.) et de substitution (retraites rentes), ainsi que des revenus issus du capital autre que d’agrément.
En l’absence de revenus, le capital des époux sera pris en compte au titre des facultés contributives."

I hope I've parsed this right: revenus d'agrément rather than revenus issus du capital d'agrément. Résidence d'agrément is "second home"... it's difficult to fit that notion around "income". Anyone know what the idea is here?
Proposed translations (English)
2 other than recreational investment income
4 income from a corporation approved cession of shareholder equity
3 (other than income derived from) a revenue sharing agreement
3 income from a tax-saving scheme
3 supplementary income
3 revenues from capital other than the agreed ones
Change log

Jun 21, 2022 18:23: Adrian MM. Created KOG entry

Discussion

Conor McAuley Jun 18, 2022:
An "assumption"? Now you're putting thoughts into people's minds. Everybody went off in a different direction apart from me.

In a contract, you can put anything in that's legal (and illegal too, until challenged) and that the parties agree to sign, that's very straightforward. You're being a bit naive there.

You are right that there's been more than enough discussion.
Daryo Jun 18, 2022:
"Maison d'agrément" where "... d'agrément" is supposed to mean "additional/ second/ancillary" was the assumption initially everyone took for granted, and went from there to wander to various dead-ends.

You maybe didn't mention "Maison d'agrément" but you are still looking for variants of "additional" (as you said ...additional or supplementary income ...), never mind how much it would make sense in a "Contrat de Mariage Separation de Biens"

One spouse being allowed not to contribute to common costs of marriage simply because it's an unexpected gain and that spouse fancy blowing that money instead of putting in the common kitty? You really see that as a likely clause in such a type of contract?

Anyway, given the limited context available, there isn't much more to be said about this puzzle.
Conor McAuley Jun 18, 2022:
"Maison d'agrément"... ...is not in any of my posts, if I recall correctly. Your insistence on it is a bit bewildering to me, although Mpoma does mention it in passing.

My rationale is about working backwards from "enjoyable" and "pleasure" to a word more in fitting with the context (i.e. finding the right register), which is, I believe, what I have done with my answer.

The text implies that the other income (detailed earlier in the sentence) covers day-to-day stuff, whereas as this is money for having a good time, kind of "bonus" money.

If you wanted to formalise it up even more, you could even call it "ancillary income". But "extra", I now believe, hits the spot.

I've got a feeling that Mpoma will like "ancillary". Income that kind of builds up, and you suddenly say to yourself, "Great, I've made 100k with my shares in TikTok", I'd better treat myself to a Merc.

(Apologies for all the edits, with V1 I clicked on "Preview" and my post disappeared. Also it's late and HOT here.)
Daryo Jun 17, 2022:
@ Conor that example is a very good one.

For the purpose of elimination - defining what "d'agrément" IS NOT in "maison d'agrément". Important as this misinterpretation was the beginning of a path to a variety of dead-ends.

Good to confirm that "d'agrément" in "maison d'agrément" is about "agrément" = pleasurable (IOW = having "a nice retreat"), as a clear parallel with "Agrément de conduite" = "le plaisir de conduire" (some particular model of car).

Nothing "second" / "additional" nowhere to be seen, "le plaisir de conduire" stands on its own.

But then you get into logical contortions because you still can't quit the idea that in "maison d'agrément" the "d'agrément" part is somehow about "addtional/second" house, while your example just proved that the "d'agrément" part is primarily about "having a home to spend some pleasant time in it" or "avoir une maison d'agrément" = "avoit une maison pour se faire plaisir" (that house being the second or the third or ... not being part of the definition).

This obstination with a wrong clue reminds of how difficult it was for some scientists to let go of the flogiston theory.
Conor McAuley Jun 17, 2022:
Thanks for giving it a think, anyway.
AllegroTrans Jun 17, 2022:
@ Conor: Agrément de conduite - Auto / Moto ?? I am lost, but I partially see your reasoning - that "agrément" here means "enjoyment"
I think the jury is out on that one. I couldn't find a single web ref to amalgamate "revenus" with your concept, BUT I found one that referred to some kind of medical agreement
rapport annuel 2 0 1 2 -2 0 1 3 - CQA
https://cqaqualite.ca › media_contents › download
PDF
Revenus d'agrément. 2 822 983 $. 2 044 747 $. Revenus de certification. 659 197. 1 534 112. Revenus certification Milieu Novateur.
Conor McAuley Jun 17, 2022:
I did indeed misread the text in the last reference I posted.

This reference will hopefully clarify my reasoning:

"***l'agrement* de conduite***, c'est le plaisir qu'on ressent a utiliser une caisse. ca se traduit pas en chiffre sur le papier, ca se ressent.7 janv. 2006

Agrément de conduite - Auto / Moto - Discussions - Forum ..."


So, what I'm doing is working backwards from this idea of enjoyment or pleasure to additional or supplementary income, disposable income really, but even above and beyond that, income isn't even budgeted for, money you can blow on a big party or a nice car, at the higher end of things.

I don't think there's any need to over-analyse this question.
AllegroTrans Jun 17, 2022:
@ Conor I think your proposed meaning of "agrément" (assistante maternelle???) is a tad too obscure here, but I won't rule it our entirely. The problem we have is that "agrément" means an agreement or an arrangement of some kind and in the context of Mpoma's question some form of income/revenue arises from that agreement or arrangement.

Unless the term is bog-standard French, it seems it could be almost anything. What agreement/arrangement? Made by whom?

Pity none of our native Fr crew haven't come aboard. Maybe they will when the weather cools down, assuming Mpoma can wait that long.
Daryo Jun 17, 2022:
Not in a month of Sundays
3111 avocat compétents *en Agrément de l'assistante maternelle sont disponibles en cabinet pour vous accompagner dans vos démarches juridiques etc
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Agrément de l'assistante maternell...

If you look closely these are lawyers specialised in helping you to obtain "l'Agrément de l'assistante maternelle" which is in fact a license to work in or run your own kinder garden. IOW to get "the local authorities **to agree** that you can work in that business".

The only thing that is "additional" is that you get a licence that you didn't have at the start of the process.

But that is hardly a ground to interpret "d'agrément" as meaning that whatever is "d'agrément" must somehow be "additional" to something else.

Otherwise - surprise surprise - it's "Agrément" boringly meaning s.o. agreeing to s.t. (local authorities agreeing to you working in a nursery)!

Je persiste et signe:

the whole of

"des revenus d’agrément issus du capital" / "des revenus issus du capital (qualifiés somme étant) d’agrément"

has nothing to do whatsoever with anything "additional" or "de loisir" but with some kind of "agreement"

The answer is somewhere else.
Conor McAuley Jun 16, 2022:
agrément: in addition to / supplementing This is my understanding of the term in this context, based on the expression "en agrément de", see the example below:

"Avocats compétents ***en Agrément de*** l'assistante maternelle https://www.juritravail.com › avocat· Translate this page
3111 avocat compétents *en Agrément de* l'assistante maternelle sont disponibles en cabinet pour vous accompagner dans vos démarches juridiques."


A more exaggerated way pf putting this is the way in which people, when they win big on a game show or in Las Vegas, they consider it as spending money.
Some will pay off their mortgages or credit cards, but most people treat themselves -- fun money!
AllegroTrans Jun 16, 2022:
Could it possibly be that this "agrément" is defined somewhere in your document?
Mpoma (asker) Jun 16, 2022:
@Daryo Thanks for your research, but I don't agree with your conclusions.

The first place to start is TFLi, and under "agrément" there is a whole section devoted to the expression "d'agrément". The central idea is clearly "b) [Avec valeur de compl. de destination] Destiné au plaisir (p. oppos. à ce qui est utile)."

At the moment I'm most inclined towards Adrian's view.

There is nothing whatsoever in the rest of this text which might elucidate this expression more than the quoted excerpt.
Daryo Jun 16, 2022:
In brief in this ST "d'agrément" can only mean something related to

"agrément" = un agrément i.e. something mutually agreed

NOT "agrément" derived from "agréable" as in "Résidence d'agrément" = destinée aux temps de loisir

The remaining mystery is about wich "agreement" this is a reference to.

There MUST BE clues somewhere else in the ST, they wouldn't be using such a condensed form if the expanded meaning wasn't "obvious from what was already said".

Instead of extrapolating from one misinterpred term, ("Résidence d'agrément" in actual fact means "a place for leisure time", ethymology can be as useful as context ...) taking a look at https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/agrément would be more of interest.

BTW https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/ is one the best online dictionanry I've ever seen, always worth taking a look.
Daryo Jun 16, 2022:
Simply from the sentence structure I would understand

... ainsi que des revenus issus du capital autre que d’agrément.

as a condensed version of

... ainsi que des revenus issus du capital autre que [des revenus] d’agrément [issus du capital].

IOW these are "des revenus issus du capital" that are of the type "d’agrément" i.e.

"des revenus d’agrément issus du capital".

For anyone interested, willing to wade thought the whole prenuptial agreement for clues, there is a grand total of ONE sample to be found on Google search that looks relevant:

https://the.ismaili/sites/default/files/media/modele_contrat...

the pdf is not searchable, it's made of scanned pictures, not text, but there is a "text version" also

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MZb-Fv...

My hunch is that "Résidence d'agrément" is a big fat red herring.

The meaning of "agrément" in "Résidence d'agrément" is about "avoir un endroit agréable" (a nice retreat) - that it ALSO happens to be an "additional" property is accessory, so looking for anything "additional" in this ST is *a dead end* (pretty sure of that).
Francois Boye Jun 15, 2022:
Les Revenus du Capital Autre que d’Agrément

I am submitting to the attention of Proz.com lawyers this hypothesis: 'capirtal autre que d’agrément' means capital acquired with no clause d'agrément.

See below the meaning of the 'clause d'agrément'

https://fiches-droit.com/clause-dagrement
Conor McAuley Jun 15, 2022:
Looks like the term is "revenus d'agrément" and not "capital d'agrément", you're right. A good basic starting-point would be "additional income" or "supplementary income".
Emmanuella Jun 15, 2022:
Des revenus provenant de gains au jeu ?

Proposed translations

2 hrs
French term (edited): revenus issus du capital autre que d’agrément
Selected

other than recreational investment income

Emmanuella > Des revenus provenant de gains au jeu ? = would be windfall profit or gains on gaming and lottery winnings etc.

May be taxable, depending on the country - used to be in the UK.

Otherwise, I can't see that the phrase - grammatically and syntactically - parses 'revenus issus ... d'agrément' - as occasional, unearned income - but needs to be read as a whole to tie up with 'Résidence d'agrément' as a 'recreational' second home.
Example sentence:

EU law defines the term “second home” as a residential domicile for recreational and leisure purposes someone owns without an objective to pursue business.

Windfall gains are unexpected large amounts of money that people receive or win. If you win a large amount of money at bingo, an afternoon's betting at the races, or on the lottery, those winnings are windfall gains.

Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schedular_system_of_taxation

Note from asker:
Thanks... an essential element to understanding this is that this particular type of income stream is excluded, on the basis of some rationale, when considering someone's "contributory capacities". I think the answer probably lies somewhere between your and Conor's suggestions ...
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks. Still not sure but is a plausible candidate."
24 mins

(other than income derived from) a revenue sharing agreement

"as well as income from capital other than (income derived) from any revenue sharing agreement"

see the one reference I found on English website...I would suppose that in a martial contract, the couple could have drawn up some kind of revenue-sharing agreement, and therefore in this instance, it would concern capital derived from any capital not covered by that agreement.
Reference:

https://proposable.com/contract-templates/revenue-sharing-agreement

Something went wrong...
41 mins
French term (edited): revenus d\'agrément

income from a tax-saving scheme

Partie 1 : Mesures fiscales soumises à agrément préalable

(BOI-SJ-AGR)

9201

Les agréments fiscaux sont des procédures administratives qui permettent à un contribuable de bénéficier d'un régime fiscal dérogatoire pour certaines opérations prévues par la loi. Leur obtention est subordonnée à une demande de l'intéressé et à une décision de l'autorité compétente.


The 5 main ways to make tax efficient investments in the UK
https://www.growthcapitalventures.co.uk › insights › blog
26 May 2022 — The 5 main ways to make tax efficient investments in the UK · 1. Individual Savings Accounts (ISAs) · 2. Pensions · Venture Capital Schemes · 3. · 4.

17 Best Income Tax Saving Schemes & Plans in 2022 - Scripbox
https://scripbox.com › Tax
NPS or National Pension Scheme has become a popular income tax saving investment product. It is a tax saving option that is available to both government and ...

Best Tax Saving Investments Under Section 80C - Policybazaar
https://www.policybazaar.com › income-tax › tax-savin...
Tax Saving Investments - there are many ways that individuals can save income tax up to Rs. 1.5 lakh under section 80C. Check out here best tax saving ...
Senior Citizen Saving Scheme: 7.40%
National Savings Certificate: 6.80%
Unit Linked Insurance Plan (ULIP): Returns vary ...
National Pension Scheme (NPS): 9% to 12%


Les niches fiscales, appelées également dérogations fiscales ou dépenses fiscales, désignent les avantages fiscaux dont peuvent bénéficier les contribuables pour diminuer le montant de leur impôt, dès lors qu'ils remplissent certaines conditions.

Niche fiscale - Wikipédia

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Note added at 3 hrs (2022-06-15 19:54:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------



It's only "persuasive" and my CL is only "medium"
Cannot say I heard the term before and my answer comes only from 8.5 minutes of rather casual research + some (perhaps questionable) intuition
Maybe a native FR-spkr will come to the fore
Note from asker:
Ah, excellent, really persuasive. You can see how this expression "d'agrément" could be "displaced" to mean "having to pay no tax on it", though I'm sure I've never heard it used in that way before...
Peer comment(s):
neutral Daryo : At least it's the right variant of meaning for "d'agrément", but (1) the parsing behind the way the question was asked needs to be revisited (2) it's not very likely - WHY would one spouse be allowed not to share just that one type of income??
2 days 6 hrs
WHY would one spouse be allowed not to share just that one type of income?? Because it's a person-specific tax advantage presumably
Something went wrong...
6 hrs
French term (edited): revenus d\'agrément

income from a corporation approved cession of shareholder equity

Une clause d'agrément est une clause insérée dans les statuts de société ou dans un pacte d'actionnaires (aussi appelé pacte d'associés). Elle prévoit que les associés de la société doivent donner leur accord à toute cession de parts sociales ou d'actions.Jan 8, 2020


https://fiches-droit.com/clause-dagrement

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2022-06-15 23:37:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

capital autre que d’agrément. = capital other than any corporation approved cession of shareholder equity
Something went wrong...
28 mins

supplementary income

https://smerra.fr/a9140-lettre-ouverte-a-m-emmanuel-macron-p...

Lettre ouverte à M. Emmanuel Macron, Président de la République

"L’autre moitié, en revanche, exerce des emplois qualifiés de ″jobs étudiants″, réguliers ou occasionnels, dont les revenus sont destinés à la vie courante et aux produits et services de première nécessité (loyer, alimentation, santé…) plutôt que des ***revenus d’agrément***."

You could almost call it "fun money" or "spending money", it's income over and above what you need for basic essentials.

I don't imagine there will be a specific and formal legal term. None mentioned by Bridge.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 30 mins (2022-06-15 17:15:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

So, "revenus issus du capital autre que d’agrément" would be

non-supplementary capital income


Capital income: "Capital income is the income generated through the possession of wealth, such as rental income, gains from selling an asset, dividend income, certain interest income, proceeds from a life insurance contract, and the share of profits of an investment fund."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2022-06-15 22:08:31 GMT)
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To Mpoma: I think ISAs are far from fun to invest in (kind of boring?), they're investments made with a serious aim.

Certainly some fascinating theories in reply to your question. That's also why we come here.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 8 hrs (2022-06-18 01:00:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

More formal: "ancillary"

Formal but plain English: "extra"
Note from asker:
Thanks. On balance, although Allegro T's suggestion is pretty persuasive, this interpretation of yours fits the context more convincingly: why would income from ISAs (or equiv) be excluded when considering someone's "contributory capacities"? But "fun money"/"spending money" (in whatever sense this is meant) maybe...
Something went wrong...
2 days 6 hrs
French term (edited): des revenus issus du capital autre que d’agrément.

revenues from capital other than the agreed ones

Just an idea. Start first with dissecting the ST.

Les facultés contributives des époux sont constituées de leurs revenus d’activité (salaires, revenus professionnels, droits d’auteur redevances de brevets etc.) et de substitution (retraites rentes), ainsi que des revenus issus du capital autre que d’agrément.

En l’absence de revenus, le capital des époux sera pris en compte au titre des facultés contributives."


so "les revenus issus du capital" are counted as having to be included in what spouses have to contribute to their common kitty, EXCEPT that some of these "revenus issus du capital" are NOT included in that obligation "by agreement".

Most likely "by agreement" between the spouses themselves, but there is nothing to exclude other possibilities as to who exactly is giving this "agreement" to exclude some "revenus issus du capital" from "les facultés contributives des époux".



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 9 hrs (2022-06-18 01:49:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another "démonstration par l'absurde":

"giving yourself a treat" like in "agrément de conduite" or "résidence d'agrément" implies spending money, so THAT meaning for "d'agrément" can hardly make sense for a term that is about a category of income , and not just any income but only "income from capital".

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Note added at 3 days 12 hrs (2022-06-19 05:27:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The available context is limited, so after eliminating what can not make sense, all you can do is to look at what is most likely to make sense.

There is still one piece of "possible context" that could maybe help.

The ST seems to have been made according this model for "contrat de mariage":

https://the.ismaili/sites/default/files/media/modele_contrat...

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MZb-Fv...

If that's the case, this clause shouldn't overlap nor contradict anything else in the contract, IOW knowing the whole contract would by elimination narrow down possible interpretations.






--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days 12 hrs (2022-06-19 05:36:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

IOW knowing the whole contract would by elimination further narrow down possible interpretations.
Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : "Agreed revenues"? Agreed by whom? You admit you don't know the nature of the "agreement" (if that is what it is) so a CL of 3 is unrealistic; this is merely a guess
8 hrs
I didn't mention anything resembling "Agreed revenues" - what is "agreed" is the exemption from having to put some of income from capital in the pot for "common expenditures" // a guess for sure - as plausible as yours + maybe fits better...
Something went wrong...
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