French term
Works in: French to English
se faire entretenir
| 4 | has her wealthy lover take care of her upkeep |
Daryo
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| 4 +10 | lives off her rich lover |
Sheri P
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| 4 +4 | be a kept (wo)man |
Bourth
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| 4 +2 | Supported Financially |
Andrew Paul Kennett
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Apr 6, 2023 13:42: philgoddard changed "Field" from "Social Sciences" to "Other"
Apr 6, 2023 15:37: Conor McAuley changed "Language pair" from "French to English" to "English to French"
Apr 6, 2023 15:38: Conor McAuley changed "Language pair" from "English to French" to "French to English"
PRO (2): Conor McAuley, Daryo
When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.
How to tell the difference between "easy" and "pro" questions:
An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an easy question is one that any native speaker of the language would be able to answer correctly.)
A pro question is anything else... in other words, any question that requires knowledge or skills that are specialized (even slightly).
Another way to think of the difficulty levels is this: an easy question is one that deals with everyday conversation. A pro question is anything else.
When deciding between easy and pro, err on the side of pro. Most questions will be pro.
* Note: non-member askers are not given the option of entering 'pro' questions; the only way for their questions to be classified as 'pro' is for a ProZ.com member or members to re-classify it.
Proposed translations
has her wealthy lover take care of her upkeep
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: maybe it was her initiative, but your construction is "heavy" and the "net" result is that she lives off her lover as suggested by Sheri's much more natural sounding wording
8 hrs
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it's not "maybe" // you can see it that way, or you can see it as not throwing away "nuances" // "A running in front of B" is not quite the same if they are in a race, of if A is trying to escape B, or they are by pure coincidence running the same way ...
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lives off her rich lover
| agree |
Conor McAuley
: Yes, really good, works in UK and US English too
5 mins
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| agree |
Emmanuella
19 mins
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| agree |
writeaway
38 mins
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| agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: Yes, quite simply. "sugar daddy" would be overtranslation.
2 hrs
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| agree |
Maïté Mendiondo-George
2 hrs
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| agree |
Michele Fauble
2 hrs
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
: I don't think it's essential to translate the reflexive verb, this works adequately
3 hrs
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| agree |
Jennifer Levey
5 hrs
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| agree |
Anastasia Kalantzi
6 hrs
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| agree |
Rob Grayson
19 hrs
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France
Linguistics, Manufacturing Tourism
Native in: English (Variant: British) 
, French (Variant: Standard-France)
Works in: French to English, English to French
Supported Financially
| agree |
philgoddard
: I don't think you need to say "financially".
52 mins
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Thank you Philip
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
: This works as a "toned down", more neutral, version than Sheri's suggestion
4 hrs
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Thank you Allegro. I kept it low key so as not to upset people.
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be a kept (wo)man
"kept man
A man who does not work and receives money and provisions from his romantic partner."
"kept woman
A woman who does not
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/work and receives money and provisions from her romantic partner."
This is a translation of your ST entry. How you work it into your translation or not is another matter. "... and was a kept woman" is a bit flat. I might say something along the lines of "She didn't work and was happy to be / contented herself with being / made do with being / put up with being a kept woman", etc. depending on the woman's hopes, aspirations, potential, etc.
Normally 'kept woman' implies a lover, so that bit could be left out (and he would be well advised to do so too). But if the fact that her lover was fortuné rather then be yer average middle-aged married man who manages to scrape by and still cheat on his wife, etc. , then it would be necessary to add '... the (or 'a' if she is but one of several) kept woman of her wealthy lover".
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Note added at 3 hrs (2023-04-06 17:13:26 GMT)
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There seems to be a suggestion that 'kept woman' might not be US English. I've run it past Google Ngrams, and while it is indeed less frequent in the US body of text than in the UK, it is (these days) more common than 'Roosevelt'. There are also a number of books written by American authors in which the term can be found.
| agree |
Conor McAuley
: Agree for UK English, more neutral than a translation with "sugar daddy", for better or for worse / a more neutral wording in the French would be "ÊTRE/EST entretenu" instead of "SE FAIRE entretenir / these words are now unisex, rightly so
1 hr
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| agree |
Tony M
: 'se faire' adds a nuance of meaning, suggesting 'manages to get herself supported...' —i.e. as if this had been a deliberate intention on her part.
4 hrs
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Thanks, my 'belaboured' point exactly.
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| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: I personally think you are trying to labour the reflexive verb a tad too heavily
5 hrs
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It's all options. With context - which maybe Asker has - it would be possible to be more creative, along the lines of my suggestions.
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| agree |
Anastasia Kalantzi
7 hrs
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| agree |
Daryo
: Kept men? Nothing new - some were most litterally "kept" https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-married-woman-who-...
23 hrs
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Discussion
"Down-voting" and changes from Pro to non-Pro to demean Askers and Answerers of questions that start out as Pro are the problem, you could probably still allow upvoting, but preferably ban both.
That would prevent any sniping and unnecessary aggro.
If people are seriously offended when a question is listed as Pro when it shouldn't be, in their opinion of course, then those people should simply decide not to help the Asker and protest in this petty way.
The purpose of ProZ is mainly about helping others but participation is never obligatory!
Our Flemish colleague (I think "they" are Flemish, gender never confirmed 100%...when it used to be a binary thing) is generally aggressive and hostile openly, and I actually prefer that honesty.
This "voting-down" negativity can't be punished either (unless you can prove that there is a pattern of harassment and abuse, as I just have), so it's a completely cowardly act.
I'm currently weighing up my options regarding "further action", if the standard of moderation does not improve.
There is no mention of "average" in the main part of the rule, that is a misconception, but it's a fair assumption to make. But even then, it's the average bilingual person, and NOT the average translator, and how many untrained bilingual people can translate to a pro standard?
The Pro and Non-Pro system is a like social media: it's not inherently bad or evil, but in the hands of human beings it gets really ugly.
We could definitely do without it, but I won't be holding my breath. You are a gent most of the time at least, goodnight Chris!
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/transport-trans...
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/certificates-di...
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/finance-general...
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/finance-general...
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/finance-general...
When I start to get a few examples together (and I have many, many more), the data and evidence just become overwhelming, they speak for themselves...even I'm shocked – the sheer negativity and "deconstructiveness" (intention to destroy and harm) involved is just scandalous, really astounding!
The level of obsession that must be involved is actually quite disturbing too, if you think about it.
Jealousy is inevitable, but still.
At the time I barely complained, it should be noted.
AllegroTrans: at least you have the decency to allow my point about the classification/category.
But please note, when we speak about "any bilingual person" (please note that YOU said "bilingual TRANSLATOR" below, and that is incorrect, and VERY FEW bilinguals can actually translate to a professional standard) as per the rule, to push my point to the extreme a bit, you're claiming to be inside the head of EVERY French/English bilingual in the world, and it technically only takes one who is not able to translate a given question to prove my case, and there will always be many, we all have blind spots.
I'm sure you could get French native speakers who couldn't explain "se faire entretenir" to you, for that matter.
However, I agree that the PRO/NON PRO classification on the site isn't particularly helpful and can be downright divisive. What is more relevant is surely the subject area - this term clearly fits into "general/conversation" separating it clearly from a technical term in, say, electronic engineering.
I won't ask if you work as a proofreader...
MySugardaddy.eu
https://www.mysugardaddy.eu › ...
·
Translate this page
Un ***sugar daddy*** est ***un homme fortuné***"
I can do this for as long as it takes, I've got all the time and patience in the world.
In no way whatsoever.
Except that's almost exactly the situation described by the definition of "sugar daddy" in the Merriam Webster:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sugar daddy#:~:te...
I am making a linguistic point.
Three answers – are the three answers equally right? And none of them are wrong? Impossible. So two of our three bilinguals who answered here are wrong, or partly wrong, and so the question can't be answered "by any bilingual person", as per the question set out by ProZ.com, that has to be answered in the positive in order for a KudoZ question to be determined to be non-Pro.
That seems like a very objective and easy-to-follow line of argument to me.
I understand that most people's brains fog over when they read legal texts but this is so much more straightforward. I repeat: "by ANY bilingual person". Including the ones with IQs below 100. Any bilingual person. Below 100. Any bilingual person.
About 10 discussion entries not by me. Discussion implies debate implies complexity implies that not any bilingual person can answer.
Do you say "a kept woman" in the States? 1) Was that previously part of your vocabulary and 2) do you at least understand it?
See my point? I don't really care. It's a valid point.
"elle ne travaille pas et se fait entretenir par son amant fortuné" is not “advanced French”.
The category is problematic, ultimately, for the reasons I've outlined below, about various concepts lining not up fully, there is room for confusion.
Nobody was ever not given a translation job because they had a few KudoZ points more or less, whether Pro or non-Pro.
2) Questions are rarely "voted down" to non-Pro for healthy reasons, and it rarely achieves anything when they are.
I note, in relation to the last point, that the person who posted the "veuve" question (who was new to KudoZ), and who posted some others that she got some "feedback" (that's a euphemism but I'm not allowed to post the word in question) about, some "downvotes", seems to have stopped posting questions now, possibly to avoid what I'm forced to call "feedback".
Is that a positive outcome? Are the people who gave her "feedback" and very debatable "downvotes" proud of themselves?
Please note that I don't know the person in question "from Adam", as they say, I just found a lot of the behaviour quite shocking.
These things are important. Online IS real life. Acts on this website, even seemingly small acts, have real-life consequences.
Are the expressions "sugar daddy" and "née" even in every bilingual's vocabulary, and do they also fully understand the terms and contexts around them?
Ask people you're in contact with, of various intelligence and life experience levels, and see.
I don't think that the issue is debatable: EVERY bilingual, remember, or almost every bilingual, or even the average bilingual.
If we don't agree on basic facts, we're doomed to childishly and narrow-mindedly "Twitter-fight" each other "to death" at every turn!!!
Renate: again, the question is not framed as whether a question is "advanced French" or not, it is framed as "Are you sure that this question could be answered by any bilingual person WITHOUT the aid of a dictionary?".
Now that may be a very fine and possibly almost legalistic point, and I accept that, but it is nonetheless true.
The underlying problem is that the distinction between Pro versus non-Pro does not line up fully with the letter of the law, set out above, that dictates, on this website, what is deemed to be a Pro question and what is deemed to be a non-Pro question.
The issue also hangs on understandings of the word "bilingual", and that is problematic too.
Would every bilingual, including younger ones with much less life experience, even understand some of the concepts around "se faire entretenir", in actual, real, lived life?
No.
The same goes as regards "veuve", and legal contexts around maiden names, married names and even a working understanding of what "née" means.
Legal contexts involved => not every bilingual would get it. SIMPLE!
I can do this as long as it takes.
But you know, if you want to do this until your dying breath, I will too. It will get very tedious for everyone.
Again, the issue is not a general one around what people's various understandings of what "Pro", "Non-Pro" and "bilingual" are, it is a very narrowly-framed one set out as "Are you sure that this question could be answered by any
bilingual person WITHOUT the aid of a dictionary?".
The likes of you and me are actually the least qualified people to answer that question, but I have set out a very objective argument above.
I've got about 30 to 40 years left in me, and this issue is a very obvious truth that is very important to me.
I don't expect ProZ to be still around in 2050 or 2060, but we'll see.
French 101 and a whole lot more was back in 1990 for me! But I forgive you.
Here is the meaning of "entretenu" (even educated intellectuals do it!):
"Simone de Beauvoir interroge Jean-Paul Sartre
Cairn
https://www.cairn.info › revue-cahi...
·
Translate this page
Jan 8, 2020 — D'ailleurs, il est frappant que, si une bourgeoise est ***entretenue par son mari***, et qu'elle n'a pas un père qui la reprenne en mains au cas ..."
(It should be "reprenne en main" for those of us paying attention, but anyway.)
https://particuliers.engie.fr/aide-contact/questions-reponse...
https://www.wordreference.com/enfr/kept woman
That's a wrap, I believe.
And even then the dictionary entry doesn't get the pejorative aspect across, there is a loss of meaning in the translation suggested.
Again, "sugar daddy" is not a term you would use every day (unless you worked for a celebrity gossip magazine or something).
It means "financially supports you" but it's more pejorative than that, it has got a negative edge to it.