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Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

energetic(al)

English answer:

energy (adj)

Added to glossary by Charles Davis
Aug 18, 2014 21:46
9 yrs ago
11 viewers *
English term

Energetic(al)

English Tech/Engineering Environment & Ecology
This is a general question about word use (in both BrE and AmE) in the renewable energy sector.

Now, I do know the word "energetic" as in:

Energetic performance.
Energetic walks.
Energetic electrons.

But what about relating energetic(al) to something such as the Energy Performance in Buildings Directive?

Can a building really be energetic?

I've come across both versions (with and without -al at the end) a number of times. However, almost all of the scientific papers, journalistic articles, etc. that contain the word seem to have been written by German, French, or other non-native speakers of English.

I don't see a reason why you shouldn't just use "energy" or "energy efficiency" as the appropriate words. It could be that someone just fell for a hoax (don't know, maybe the buildings are dancing on the table). But I could be wrong, that's why I'm asking. The directive itself (and the related documentation) doesn't include the word even once.

Examples:

"A typical 1960’s office building on the main campus of Southampton University, UK has been investigated in terms of its existing energetic performance."
http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/53675/

"Centralised and consolidated view of a building's energetic performance or of a community area as a whole (consumption rates of energy and fluids; sources of energy production)"
http://www.qosenergy.com/en/building-industry-energy-efficie...

"Energetic and Environmental Certification of Building Materials"
http://www.crbnet.it/File/Pubblicazioni/pdf/1426.pdf

Thank you!
Responses
5 +6 energy (adj)
4 high-energy
4 energy-consuming/hungry etc.
3 +1 energy-efficient/performance in terms of energy
Change log

Aug 26, 2014 21:19: Charles Davis Created KOG entry

Discussion

Björn Vrooman (asker) Aug 19, 2014:
continued... "energetic materials" = "a class of material with high amount of stored chemical energy that can be released"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energetic_material

Because renewable technology research may involve chemistry and physics, I personally think that some native speakers just mixed things up here by using terminology from other fields.

Even Mark Shwartz (without the -c- I think) does not talk of "energetic" in the news piece he published: http://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/may/bapvc-solar-grants-05...

They are basically trying to extend the meaning of a term by obfuscating its original intent, as in "involving a lot of energy".

For example, "energetische Sanierung" (how would you say that in French, Tony?) is also called "thermische Sanierung" but in the sense of reducing thermal losses to make the heat stay in the building. However, that does not have to mean that the building itself (the walls) are warmer: that depends on the type of insulation used.

I think they're trying to see a building as a structure that contains a lot of heat (energy) and shouldn't lose so much of it, thus it's energetic. But that's kind of a stretch for my "mental image processor".
Björn Vrooman (asker) Aug 19, 2014:
Energetic = physics and chemistry more likely Went through the Stanford University's department (thanks for the link, Charles) and could find no reference to "energetic" among the news items in 2012. In the other documents, I found something such as:
"the gaps in our understanding of the energetic requirements of critical chemical steps for reversible electrohyrogenation"
http://gcep.stanford.edu/pdfs/TechReports2013/2.7.5_Waymouth...

"Genetic modification of CCMs may improve the energetic efficiency and rate of carbon uptake in oxygenic photosynthetic organism"
https://gcep.stanford.edu/pdfs/BiologicalCaptureandUtilizati...

First: chemistry; second: biology

When you search for companies, you'll find:
"Energetic Solutions, LLC engages in the development and sale of electromagnetic pest repellants. It offers shoo!TAG, which emits electromagnetic frequencies and protects dogs and cats against fleas and ticks"
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/sn...

"Pacific Scientific Energetic Materials Company (PSEMC) is the industry leader in the design, development and production of energetic materials"
http://www.psemc.com/
Tony M Aug 19, 2014:
@ Asker I agree with you about Barnhart's expression "understanding the energetic [...] requirements of [...] electrical energy resources", which sounds like techncial gobbledy-gook to me — I think what they really meant was probably more along the lines of "understanding the energy [...] requirements in terms of [...] electrical energy"
Charles Davis Aug 19, 2014:
@ Björn You have a point about Barnhart's statement, and the point is a general one: even world-class scientists sometimes (often?) express themselves badly. It's just that his use of "energetic", which seems to be general practice in his research unit and probably elsewhere in the US too, suggests that perhaps the usage is sufficiently well established in this particular technical field to be regarded as English and not just a calque. I'm not saying categorically that this is so, just that the possibility should be considered. Of course, that doesn't mean that one has to adopt that usage, and indeed I think it would be unwise to do so in Europe, since in so far as it is English it seems to be only American English. I can't go beyond that.
Björn Vrooman (asker) Aug 19, 2014:
@Charles I've found another reference - this time, an Austrian one.

Energy performance of buildings ― Energy requirements for lighting

Energetische Bewertung von Gebäuden ― Energetische Anforderungen an die Beleuchtung

Performance énergétique des bâtiments ― Exigences énergétiques pour
l'éclairage

This one does support your statement of a "false friend".

In reference to the ISO statement, I guess you'll have to figure out who wrote the foreword. It's the same thing here: Searching for native-speaker references is quite hard, searching for "energetic" ISO references by non-native speakers is quite easy.

I do have to point out that Barnhart's sentence sounds odd to me anyway. Just make it a bit shorter:
"understanding the energetic [...] requirements of [...] electrical energy resources"


-> understanding the energy-related requirements of electrical energy resources? What's that supposed to mean? Does this even make sense? Have I missed something here?

I'd even say "electrical resources for the power grid" sounds a bit awkward as well, but I may be wrong.
Charles Davis Aug 19, 2014:
(3) Is Barnhart using the word wrongly? If I told him so, would he take any notice? I’m not being flippant; it seems to me that if he and his colleagues are using it that way, then it must be regarded, at least de facto, as correct English in this technical field. I find this disconcerting.
Charles Davis Aug 19, 2014:
(2) So I was sure that it must be wrong to talk about the "energetic performance" of buildings, or "energetic costs". But is it? I am no longer entirely sure that it’s wrong in American English. After all, Merriam-Webster says that "energetic" can mean "of or relating to energy", so why not? The Introduction to ISO 10916:2014, "Calculation of the impact of daylight utilization on the net and final energy demand for lighting", begins: "This International Standard is part of a set of standards allowing to rate the overall energetic performance of buildings".
https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:10916:ed-1:v1:en

And I was powerfully struck by the Stanford University source I cited, in which Charles Barnhart, a postdoctoral fellow in the Global Climate and Energy Project at Stanford, is quoted repeatedly using "energetic" in precisely this sense. Barnhart, apparently a native speaker of English and obviously a high-powered specialist in the field, says that his research "focuses on understanding the energetic and material requirements of low-carbon electrical energy resources for the power grid".
http://web.stanford.edu/~cjbarnha/Charles_Barnhart/Home.html
Charles Davis Aug 19, 2014:
@ Björn (1) Since I don't translate professionally from French or German, and this is a specialised field, perhaps I should leave your examples to more expert colleagues. But the general point you raise in your last comment is very interesting. You are right that "energetic" is commonly used to mean "energetisch" or "energétique" in papers by foreign authors. One I encountered several times while browsing through examples is Silvia Brunoro, "An assessment of energetic efficiency improvement of existing building envelopes in Italy", which seems to be a calque of Italian "energetico". It seems possible that English-speaking specialists who regularly read and cite such papers might fall into the habit of using "energetic" like this themselves.

My immediate reaction to the question was that this usage is not correct English, largely because I am so familiar with "energético" and "energetic" being false friends in Spanish. Red Bull is called a “bebida energética" in Spanish, but of course it’s an energy drink in English, and "energetic drink" is an elementary error. The Spanish government has a "política energética"; the British government has an energy policy (which may or may not be energetic).
Björn Vrooman (asker) Aug 19, 2014:
@Charles Thank you very much for your research! Maybe I should give Tony and you some background information:

The renewable energy sector is one of the most translation-resilient sectors today. While revising journalistic articles written by non-native speakers, I seriously have already had to edit quotations taken from documents, web pages, etc. because the original wording was simply incorrect or totally off mark.

This is especially true for scientific studies and the like: Scientists are not the best writers to begin with (usually) but if it's not their native language, they will be influenced by the works of other scientists (who also didn't have an editor or proofreader). One Dutch author I (otherwise) really like made the mistake of using respectively for beziehungsweise - something I was only able to get out of my system a while later. Thus, I would treat any scientific reference using the term with caution: They may have just been influenced by their "peers". Or: That's how the term found its way into American English. It wouldn't be the first time that people from the UK (in case of India, etc.) or the US (in case of Europe) adopt a meaning not previously found in English.
Björn Vrooman (asker) Aug 19, 2014:
German sources: Two other German examples:

"Energetische Sanierung, auch thermische Sanierung, bezeichnet in der Regel die Modernisierung eines Gebäudes zur Minimierung des Energieverbrauchs für Heizung, Warmwasser und Lüftung."
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energetische_Sanierung

"Bei der energetischen Bewertung und Abnahme von Wohn- und Nichtwohngebäuden gemäß EnEV 2007/2009 gilt es für alle potentiellen Bauherren in Zukunft, folgendes zu beachten: Die DIN V 18 599 gibt wie kein anderes Verfahren zuvor eine Methode zur Bewertung der Gesamtenergieeffizienz von Gebäuden an die Hand"
http://www.bauwissen-online.de/PDF/Energ_Bew_Geb.pdf
Björn Vrooman (asker) Aug 19, 2014:
By the way: (@Tony) Thank you for pointing out the difference between the two languages here! I have a question for you:

Do you see the HPE below? That is otherwise written as High Energy Performance, the French term it "haute performance énergétique (HPE)" - how would you translate the last words (since my French is "too rusty")?
Björn Vrooman (asker) Aug 19, 2014:
@all (French sources) Oh my, what did I start here :) Thank you all for your answers!

I would like to point out that I did say "general" in my opening statement - but in English and in the renewable energy sector. We're not talking about general physics or the like but about something such as energetic performance or "energetische Sanierung", which is an energy-efficient retrofit/refurbishment/renovation in German.

Even in texts apparently translated from French, I get something like the following:

"Suitable for HPE (High Energetic Performance), THPE (Very High Energetic Performance) and BBC (Low Consumption Building) construction"
http://www.rector.fr/en/private-housing/plancher-sur-sous-so... (Mulhouse France)

"Energetic Performance of Buildings
Issues
Indicators"
http://cpnl.esigelec.fr/archives/Presentation_Fran�ois_050608....
(Presentation by French authors)

Or a collaborative effort, including a US citizen:
"The methodology presented in this paper can be extended to other operational conditions/systems to optimize their energetic performance."
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=27126213

That doesn't sound to me like energy-hungry or am I wrong?

Responses

+6
1 hr
Selected

energy (adj)

Just "energy", used as an adjective, when it means energy-related. The expression is "energy performance":

"Energy Performance Certificates (EPCs) are needed whenever a property is:
built
sold
rented"
https://www.gov.uk/buy-sell-your-home/energy-performance-cer...

The use of "energetic" in this sense is a classic error that arises in Romance languages, such as my main language, Spanish, where "enérgico" means energetic (full of energy) and "energético" means energy-related. I've just had a quick check and it's the same in Italian (minus the accents), which presumably explains your last reference. Ditto French: energique vs. energétique. I bet this is the reason for the examples you have found.

"Energetic" definitely cannot be used in this way in English.


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Note added at 2 hrs (2014-08-18 23:53:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

HOWEVER

Having checked dictionary definitions, I should qualify this. Oxford online, for example, includes "of or relating to energy" as a definition of "energetic", though interestingly enough it only occurs in the American English definitions, not British English:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng...
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/ener...

Merriam-Webster also includes it among the definitions of "energetic":
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/energetic

So I had better amend my last statement to say that "energetic" cannot be (or at least it certainly is not normally) used in this way in British English, but perhaps it can in American English.

"Energetical" is listed as an alternative form of "energetic", but it is very much less common.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2014-08-19 08:11:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

This is quite intriguing. I have just searched for examples of "energetic performance of buildings". There are quite a few, but virtually all emanate from non-native speakers of English: not just French, German, Spanish and Italian, but also Portuguese, Romanian and Dutch. There is one example in the abstract of an article by an Irish author:

"Such strategies to improve the energetic performance of buildings [...]"
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01425919408909819...

Presumably the author (J. Owen Lewis) wrote this. So one can't quite say that a native speaker would never use the expression. Conceivably it is the result of interference from another language.

I am prepared to state categorically that this usage is alien to British English. And indeed the relevant EU directives, 2002/91/CE and 2010/31/UE, have "energy performance" in the titles of their English versions, though some foreign writers cite them in English as "energetic performance".

However, as I've said, the American dictionary definitions seem to allow this usage, and so you find cases like the following, written in the newsletter of one of the top US universities by one Mark Schwartz, who seems to be a native speaker and "writes about energy science and technology at the Precourt Institute for Energy at Stanford University". "Energetic" is repeatedly used here to mean "energy-related": energetic cost, energetic performance, energetic performance, energetic perspective, energetically expensive:
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/september/curtail-energy-...

This suggests that "energetic" can be and is used in this sense in the field in American English.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2014-08-19 14:38:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

References for the EU directives, in case anyone wants them:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELE...

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2...
Note from asker:
Thank you for your research! I have posted some discussion entries. Maybe you'd like to comment on them.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Cilian O'Tuama : is hard to agree with Cl5 answer, unless perfect
55 mins
Not sure I follow the logic of that.
agree Jean-Claude Gouin : 1. @ Charles: I agree. 2, @ Cilian: ??? 3. @ Bjön: Welcome to ProZ.com ... // When you're sure, you give yourself a 5; there's no need to apologize ...
2 hrs
Thanks, 1045. I will admit that confidence 5 was excessive, and I felt a bit foolish having to admit that I'd been over-confident :)
agree Andy Watkinson
3 hrs
Thanks, Andy :)
agree Jack Doughty
5 hrs
Thanks, Jack :)
agree BrigitteHilgner : The German translation of "energy performance" is "energetische Leistung" (that might well add to the confusion).
6 hrs
Very probably, and indeed the asker mentions German sources too. Many thanks, Brigitte :)
agree Tony M : Part of the answer... but the key point is that it so often means specifically 'energy inefficient' (not just '...-related'). So needs to be used with care...
6 hrs
As I read it, the question is asking about the use of "energetic" to mean "energy-related": can you say "energetic performance" instead of "energy performance", meaning performance in terms of energy (consumption)?
agree GILLES MEUNIER : oui c'est dans ce sens
7 hrs
Merci, Gilou :)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Whether CL5 or not is totally irrelevant to me. I can just say: Thank you very much for the comprehensive explanation! And thank you again for all the research into the topic. Special thanks also to Gallagy and Tony for their contributions - the additional research and the important note of caution, respectively. Please see their answers as well. Anyone who may want to look up the word will have a lot of material."
8 hrs

high-energy

... is conformant in meaning and style of expression.
Note from asker:
Actually, I've already quoted an example of "high-energy" in my question because I know this meaning of the word. However, the word is not used in this sense in the renewable energy sector - as far as I can see, not even in documents by non-native speakers.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Charles Davis : This is one of the standard meanings of "energetic" (as in "energetic particles"), but I don't think it's applicable to the cases Björn is asking about.
1 hr
Something went wrong...
8 hrs
English term (edited): energetic

energy-consuming/hungry etc.

It's very important to be careful here, in order to avoid a counter-sense.

As Asker rightly points out, this mis-use of 'energetic' very frequently stems from translations from FR (I can't speak for other languages) HOWEVER, when it translates the FR 'énergétique', it actually means 'consumes / requires a lot of energy', 'energy-hungry' etc. — so the opposite of what most contributors here seem to have understood!

In FR, the opposite is 'peu énérgétique' (= 'not very energetic') — THAT's the term that is used for a low-energy or energy-efficient building.

So it's all the more important to use the correct expression in EN!!!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 heures (2014-08-19 06:04:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

FR also uses the term 'énergivore' (literally, 'energy-hungry'), which has the merit of being more explicit.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 heures (2014-08-19 07:39:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

As Charles D. has pointed out, in the specific examples you quote, 'energy' alone is the sense required; my answer was simply to alert you to the other possibility, in case you or future users should encounter this other usage.
Note from asker:
Thank you for the additional information! I have posted some discussion entries citing a few references in French.
Peer comment(s):
agree Charles Davis : Fair enough, Tony, but this answer is specific to French, and the question isn't. In other languages cognates of "energetic" simply mean "energy-related", and that's what it means in "energy performance".
1 hr
Thanks, Charles! Yes, I was focusing too much on Asker's opening comment.
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : this was not the question asked
3 hrs
Maybe not, but it does answer a rather important point raised by Asker, that no-one else had seen fit to raise, and for the sake of future users of the glossary, I felt it was vital to clarify.
Something went wrong...
+1
46 mins

energy-efficient/performance in terms of energy

Medium confidence because it's not my field but I really don't think "energetic " would be used. More than likely non-native writing...

http://energy.gov/eere/buildings/advanced-energy-design-guid...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 49 mins (2014-08-18 22:35:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


energy performance


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 51 mins (2014-08-18 22:38:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://www.iea.org/publications/freepublications/publication...


Really can't see a building jumping up and down:-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2014-08-19 17:26:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Just to clarify: I answered a general question about whether the word "energetic" could be used or not (in the renewables sector). My immediate thought was "no, not possible; this is non-native" but I since it's not my field I thought that just maybe there was a particular use of the word in that field so didn't want to discount it completely. At no point was I giving or trying to give "interpretations" or "translations" of meaning but merely examples of the word ENERGY (rather than "energetic) in use.

Anyway, I searched for reliable US sources and couldn't find the word "energetic used at all in the two links I posted which I think are sources that can be trusted. So, I became more convinced that "energetic" is WRONG. Yes, Charles may have found a few examples but even if they were written by natives they must have been influenced by non-native sources or just by insufficient proofing.

BTW when I said "jumping" I was joking about buildings being energetic and doing exercises=jumping up and down! "jumpy" has quite a different meaning="nervous/anxious". If beside roadworks we can say the building "shakes" but would never say it "jumps"
Note from asker:
Thank you for your answer! Good to know that the Irish are not leaving us mainland Europeans much more of a choice (in translating the term). By the way, having visited a friend's house next to which they did road construction, I can tell you that your building can actually get "jumpy" - you just have to hope it's not getting too energetic one day :)
Gallagy, don't take it too seriously: I do know the difference. That was just my (failed) attempt at making a joke based on wordplay (and there is the matter of jumpy heartbeat/pulse and the like, where you see the connection between "jump" and "jumpy"). And thank you for your added note!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I agree with your comments, however, it actually means the opposite of this! / Yes, but your headword answer 'energy-efficient' is confusingly wrong ;-(
7 hrs
I was answering the question about use of word "energetic" and giving various examples including "energy performance" before CD so think a "disagree" is harsh
agree Charles Davis : By rights I should give you an agree because you did say "energy performance" before me. I was looking at your original answer.
16 hrs
Thanks.
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