Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

you/your

English answer:

your

Added to glossary by Arabic & More
Feb 22, 2014 20:15
10 yrs ago
6 viewers *
English term

you/your

Non-PRO English Other General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
I know that there is only one apostrophe when it comes to compound subjects like the following:

Isn't this Bill and Sally's house?

But what if one of the subjects is "you"? Which of the following would be correct?

Isn't this you and Sally's house?

Isn't this your and Sally's house?

If anyone can provide an on-line reference for the rule, that would be appreciated.
Responses
4 +11 your
Change log

Feb 22, 2014 20:23: Tony M changed "Field" from "Social Sciences" to "Other"

Feb 22, 2014 23:39: Thayenga changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (3): Tony M, Sheila Wilson, Thayenga

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Discussion

Charles Davis Feb 23, 2014:
@ Tony I completely agree with your last point. This is a construction which tends to sound awkward and is avoided where possible. There's no problem with "Bill and Sally's house", but when you introduce pronouns it just doesn't sound natural.
Tony M Feb 23, 2014:
@ Charles Sorry, I didn't mean YOUR example sentences were stilted and unnatural — just that it is a general problem, that in struggling to find an example of a particular construction, people come up with sentences that just aren't natural, and then when they ask their question, people answer by saying soemthing like "A is grammatically correct, but I would actually re-write it like this to make it sound more natural". The paucity of good examples may be for the very reason that the construction is an awkward one to use correctly, so people tend to avoid it.
Charles Davis Feb 23, 2014:
@ Tony Really? Well, I am surprised. It sounds to me as though you move among unusually careful speakers :)

As for my example sentences being stilted and unnatural, I'm sorry you think so. I don't.

So, unusually, little meeting of minds here, I'm afraid. I think there is a real issue of which you have taken no account.

On "me and Sally's": it remains my firm view that "my and Sally's house", however correct, is not natural speech, except perhaps among those who have internalised prescriptive grammar to an unusual degree.
Tony M Feb 23, 2014:
@ Charles I'm afraid I don't entirely agree with the detail of what you say below.
Most speakers I know would be more likely to choose your option (2) — other than the fact that the sentence is so stilted and unnatural that they probably wouldn't say it in the first place! And certainly, in the second example, no-one I know would ever say your option (3).

This is always the problem when trying to find an example sentence to illustrate a point of grammar.

I do agree, however, that in informal, spoken language, people will probably work quite hard to get around the problem of its 'sounding funny', the solution they come up with being either to break the grammar rule in what sounds like the 'least-worst' way... or to re-phrase to avoid the issue altogether. I've heard people mix the pronoun and adjective situation — since they will say "Shall we meet round yours?" (= your place), they are quite likely to say "...yours and Sally's" without even noticing the inconsistency therein.

Charles Davis Feb 23, 2014:
So what? My point is that if this is so, and if the prescriptively correct form is not, in practice, widely used in most people's informal speech, account should be taken of this. It may be the case — I think it is — that usage here depends on register. If you are translating a novel, and you make someone refer to "my and Sally's house" in speech, my view would be that this is not correct, because it is not natural, unless you want to characterise the person as a particularly fussy and pedantic speaker.
Charles Davis Feb 23, 2014:
I think you have a point, Amel If you ask which is "correct", the answer comes out swiftly and easily: your and Sally's house. As soon as you think about it from the point of view of prescriptive grammar, the answer is obvious, and it's dismissed as "basic learner-level" stuff. But I appeal to my colleagues to try to suspend their internal grammar censor for a moment (which is very difficult to do) and ask themselves which most people would use in speech:

1. Shall we have the party at you and Sally's house?
2. Shall we have the party at your and Sally's house?

I honestly think most speakers, including myself, would say (1) without thinking, and that (2) would sound a bit stilted.

In writing, it's different. I would write "Thank you for your invitation to a party at your and Sally's house on Saturday", unless I were trying to create a colloquial effect.

To me it's even clearer with "my and Sally's house".

3. We're going to hold the party at me and Sally's house.
4. We're going to hold the party at my and Sally's house.

I can hardly imagine a normal person, not corrupted by the teachings of grammarians, saying (4). Nor would "Sally's and my house" sound natural. And no one would say "I and Sally's house".
Arabic & More (asker) Feb 23, 2014:
Thanks to those who posted references. They are helpful to me. Again, I was not doubting what you and others said as I have always known you to provide correct information about English grammar. I am almost certain, however, that the vast majority of English speakers would have trouble with this construction for the reason that it is hardly ever said properly when speaking, and most people avoid it when writing. If you think it is "non-pro" and basic "learner-level" English, I am okay with that (the problem is obviously my own), but I do think it is a question that would give many native speakers pause.
writeaway Feb 23, 2014:
@Tony Yes. When you referred to them as possessive pronouns in your explanation here, I felt that could add confusion. I wanted to clarify that one needs the adjective form in this case.
Tony M Feb 23, 2014:
@ W/A Yes, that really makes it clear: it is an adjective and not a pronoun. This is basic learner-level EN, isn't it?
writeaway Feb 23, 2014:
Possessive adjectives It has to be your because it's used as an adjective, modifying the word house. You is a pronoun that can be used as a subject or an object but never as an adjective. It's no more complicated than that.
http://www.learnamericanenglishonline.com/Blue Level/B14 Pos...
Tony M Feb 23, 2014:
@ Paru No, absolutely NOT! Here, we require the possessive adjective my / your / her / his / our / their — what you are suggesting is a different pronoun altogether, which would be quite wrong here.

"That is my car"
"Yes, the car is yours, but the house is mine"

This is just basic English grammar.
Arabic & More (asker) Feb 23, 2014:
Good question, Paru. Not that I doubt Tony, but I'm still hoping someone might post an on-line reference that contains reliable information. I have tried looking and could not find this specific issue addressed.
Parvathi Pappu Feb 23, 2014:
Don't you think it should be "yours" instead of your?

Responses

+11
7 mins
Selected

your

In the specific example you cite, it would have to be 'your' and Sally's house — if the pronoun has a posessive form other than 's, you must use it.

So it might be "My and my brother's go-kart" — one can't imagine saying "I and my brother's..."

However, it has to be said that such constructions are usually a bit awkward sounding, and best avoided if possible be re-phrasing.

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Note added at 18 minutes (2014-02-22 20:34:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Yes, in the UK too — since people often shy away from using the gramattically correct "I and my brother..." (as a subject), 'me and my brother' gets used for all cases: subject, object, indirect object, and possessive. Perfectly common colloquial usage in speech, but still inclined to be regarded as a grammatical error in formal written texts.
Note from asker:
Thanks, Tony. It's true that one would not say "I and my brother's..." but you often hear people in the U.S. saying "me and my brother's..." Not saying it is correct, but this colloquial form is very widespread.
Peer comment(s):

agree Sheila Wilson : BTW, I was always told to put others first i.e. "my brother and I"
33 mins
Thanks, Sally! Oh yes, indeed... I was merely trying to mimic Asker's original wording to make the specific point ;-)
agree Václav Pinkava : ... though I would find it more natural in any of several alternatives, e.g. "Do you own this house with Sally?" , "Is this house yours and Sally's?"
2 hrs
Thanks, Václav! Yes, exactly, as I said — but that wasn't really Asker's question, eh?
agree Oliver Walter : The "rule" for me would be instantiated as: "your house and Sally's house; therefore your and Sally's house"
3 hrs
Thanks, Oliver! Yes, that's a good way of putting it!
agree Thayenga : With our colleagues, of course. :)
3 hrs
Thanks, Thayenga!
agree David Hollywood
5 hrs
Thanks, David!
agree acetran
9 hrs
Thanks, Harshvardhan!
agree Charles Davis
12 hrs
Thanks, Charles!
agree Edith Kelly
12 hrs
Thanks, Edith!
agree Cristina Crişan
13 hrs
Thanks, MCristy!
agree AllegroTrans : this is definitely correct, but "you and Sally's house" is of course colloquial English (which even the BBC speak now)
1 day 22 hrs
Thanks, C!
agree Jean-Claude Gouin
2 days 3 hrs
Merci, J-C ! :-)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks again to those who helped with this. Really appreciate the discussion and references."

Reference comments

13 hrs
Reference:

The Chicago Manual of Style

Q. When using a pronoun to replace the first noun when two nouns show possession of one item, which case should the pronoun be? For example, in the sentence “I’m going to my uncle and aunt’s house,” “uncle” is not in the possessive case. So which case should the pronoun be? “I’m going to him and my aunt’s house”? “I’m going to he and my aunt’s house”? Or, “I’m going to his and my aunt’s house”? And, if the answer is “his,” how do you reconcile that the pronoun is not agreeing with the noun it replaces in gender, number, and case? And what is correct if the pronoun replaces the second noun? “Megan’s and his room”? Or “Megan and his room”?

A. The trick of showing joint possession with a single apostrophe s is possible only with two items that can take an apostrophe s. Hence a car owned by John and Jim can be expressed as “John and Jim’s car.” This is clearly a convenient shorthand—helped out by the fact that, normally, you can assume readers will not think that you’re writing about John, on one hand, and Jim’s car, on the other. Most pronouns do not form the possessive with an apostrophe s. “One” becomes “one’s,” but “he” becomes “his” and “I” becomes “my.” Therefore you generally cannot use shortcuts in cases of joint possession involving a pronoun. You must make both owners possessive:

his and my aunt’s house
Megan’s and his room

You can reconcile the first as equivalent to “my uncle and aunt’s house” by remembering that the apostrophe s after “aunt” also applies to “uncle”; “his” is technically replacing “uncle’s” not “uncle.”
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Tony M : Now there's the online 'proof' Asker was looking for!
14 mins
Yep, thought I'd give a hand. Thanks, Tony.
agree Charles Davis : Well, well! I was using the same reference in my own contribution while you posted this :) // Thanks very much, but I'm the one who should apologise, if anyone should!
1 hr
I'm so sorry! Your answers always make a very interesting reading!
agree AllegroTrans
1 day 10 hrs
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14 hrs
Reference:

Joint possession: theory and practice

There is quite a lot of discussion of this point online. All those who claim grammatical expertise agree with Tony. When there is more than one possessor, all of them must be in the possessive form. The exception is that when both (or all) the possessive forms end in 's, it is permissible and customary to omit all but the last 's. So instead of
- Mike's and Sally's house
you tend to say
- Mike and Sally's house.
"Mike" here is an elliptical form of "Mike's". This is the key to the following Q&A from the Chicago Manual of Style Online, which goes on to address the point we are dealing with here:


"Q. When using a pronoun to replace the first noun when two nouns show possession of one item, which case should the pronoun be? For example, in the sentence “I’m going to my uncle and aunt’s house,” “uncle” is not in the possessive case. So which case should the pronoun be? “I’m going to him and my aunt’s house”? “I’m going to he and my aunt’s house”? Or, “I’m going to his and my aunt’s house”? And, if the answer is “his,” how do you reconcile that the pronoun is not agreeing with the noun it replaces in gender, number, and case? And what is correct if the pronoun replaces the second noun? “Megan’s and his room”? Or “Megan and his room”?

A. The trick of showing joint possession with a single apostrophe s is possible only with two items that can take an apostrophe s. Hence a car owned by John and Jim can be expressed as “John and Jim’s car.” This is clearly a convenient shorthand—helped out by the fact that, normally, you can assume readers will not think that you’re writing about John, on one hand, and Jim’s car, on the other. Most pronouns do not form the possessive with an apostrophe s. “One” becomes “one’s,” but “he” becomes “his” and “I” becomes “my.” Therefore you generally cannot use shortcuts in cases of joint possession involving a pronoun. You must make both owners possessive:

his and my aunt’s house
Megan’s and his room

You can reconcile the first as equivalent to “my uncle and aunt’s house” by remembering that the apostrophe s after “aunt” also applies to “uncle”; “his” is technically replacing “uncle’s” not “uncle.”"
http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/Po...


So the requirement that all the possessors should be in the possessive form also applies to pronouns; but since their possessive forms do not end in 's, the option of omitting 's from all but the last does not apply. Therefore it should be "your and Sally's house", not "you and Sally's house". You can't say "you house" instead of "your house", so you shouldn't say "you and Sally's house" instead of "your and Sally's house".
__________________

And yet people do, very commonly. Judging from Google results—that rerum omnium arbiter of our times—"you and your wife's X" and "your and your wife's X" are just about equally common. It is clear that the latter, which normative grammar clearly mandates, is preferred in careful and formal writing (and speech), but the former seems natural to many native speakers. Here’s a wordreference.com query on Spanish-English translation of a phrase which means "your and your wife's full names". A native speaker comments:

"Although some might quibble over the grammar, many native speakers would say the following (and I would agree with them):
I'm going to need the following information: you and your wife's full names, just as they appear on your passports....
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2230124&lang...

Examples like the following are common:

" When both you and your wife's names are on the mortgage, you're both legally obligated to pay the debt regardless of any other circumstances."
http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/wifes-name-off-mortgage-1...

It seems clear to me that whatever normative grammar may say, native speakers tend to find it awkward to use a possessive form in joint possessive expressions for any but the last possessor. They find it awkward to say "Mike's and Sally's house", and reduce it to "Mike and Sally's house". The usage is well established, and normative grammar approves. Even if there is a real possibility of misunderstanding, as in "Mike and Sally's uncle" (one person or two?), I think most people would prefer to rephrase it, or just to say "Mike and Sally's uncle" and trust that people will understand what they mean, than to say "Mike's and Sally's uncle".

When we have pronoun plus noun, as in the example before us, "your and Sally's" is correct, but somehow awkward. It's not the kind of thing many people would come out with in informal speech. You can rephrase it, if there's a satisfactory way of doing so that doesn't change the meaning significantly and is not too cumbersome (this is by no means always the case), or you can simply reduce "your" to "you", which is what many people do. I would actually say that most people do it in normal speech. Indeed, resistance to "your and X's Y" is so strong that you can actually find a case like the following, on a law firm's website:

" You may wait one to two years for your trial, but meanwhile, both you, and your wife’s attorneys’ fees will continue to climb."
http://cordellcordell.com/practice-areas/divorce/

That comma after "you" makes it quite comical when read with a grammarian's eye, and of course no grammarian would recommend it, but I think we have to recognise that, in practice, people don't handle joint possession the way normative grammar says they should.

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Note added at 15 hrs (2014-02-23 11:36:47 GMT)
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It ocurred to me that the tendency to omit the possessive marker from possessives before the last might reflect an unconscious the idea that "Mike and Sally" or "you and Sally" are really a single joint possessor: it is the house of Mike-and-Sally, or of you-and-Sally, so Mike-and-Sally's house or you-and-Sally's house. However, that explanation wouldn't hold for "you and your wife names", which means your name plus your wife's name and is not a case of a single joint possessor.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs (2014-02-23 11:37:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry: occurred, not ocurred.

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Note added at 15 hrs (2014-02-23 11:37:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And "an unconscious idea", not "an unconscious the idea".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs (2014-02-23 11:42:51 GMT)
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What lies behind these reflections is that although there are such things as agreed prescriptive rules of grammar which need to applied for certain purposes, grammar is not confined to them. Those who study the English language ought to pay attention to what native speakers actually say. Diachronic linguistics teaches us that usages people prefer tend to win out in the long run and turn into the prescriptive consensus.
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree AllegroTrans
1 day 8 hrs
Thanks very much for bothering!
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