Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term
you/your
Isn't this Bill and Sally's house?
But what if one of the subjects is "you"? Which of the following would be correct?
Isn't this you and Sally's house?
Isn't this your and Sally's house?
If anyone can provide an on-line reference for the rule, that would be appreciated.
Non-PRO (3): Tony M, Sheila Wilson, Thayenga
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Responses
your
So it might be "My and my brother's go-kart" — one can't imagine saying "I and my brother's..."
However, it has to be said that such constructions are usually a bit awkward sounding, and best avoided if possible be re-phrasing.
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Note added at 18 minutes (2014-02-22 20:34:50 GMT)
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Yes, in the UK too — since people often shy away from using the gramattically correct "I and my brother..." (as a subject), 'me and my brother' gets used for all cases: subject, object, indirect object, and possessive. Perfectly common colloquial usage in speech, but still inclined to be regarded as a grammatical error in formal written texts.
Thanks, Tony. It's true that one would not say "I and my brother's..." but you often hear people in the U.S. saying "me and my brother's..." Not saying it is correct, but this colloquial form is very widespread. |
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Sheila Wilson
: BTW, I was always told to put others first i.e. "my brother and I"
33 mins
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Thanks, Sally! Oh yes, indeed... I was merely trying to mimic Asker's original wording to make the specific point ;-)
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Václav Pinkava
: ... though I would find it more natural in any of several alternatives, e.g. "Do you own this house with Sally?" , "Is this house yours and Sally's?"
2 hrs
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Thanks, Václav! Yes, exactly, as I said — but that wasn't really Asker's question, eh?
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Oliver Walter
: The "rule" for me would be instantiated as: "your house and Sally's house; therefore your and Sally's house"
3 hrs
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Thanks, Oliver! Yes, that's a good way of putting it!
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Thayenga
: With our colleagues, of course. :)
3 hrs
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Thanks, Thayenga!
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David Hollywood
5 hrs
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Thanks, David!
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acetran
9 hrs
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Thanks, Harshvardhan!
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Charles Davis
12 hrs
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Thanks, Charles!
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Edith Kelly
12 hrs
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Thanks, Edith!
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Cristina Crişan
13 hrs
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Thanks, MCristy!
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AllegroTrans
: this is definitely correct, but "you and Sally's house" is of course colloquial English (which even the BBC speak now)
1 day 22 hrs
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Thanks, C!
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Jean-Claude Gouin
2 days 3 hrs
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Merci, J-C ! :-)
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Reference comments
The Chicago Manual of Style
A. The trick of showing joint possession with a single apostrophe s is possible only with two items that can take an apostrophe s. Hence a car owned by John and Jim can be expressed as “John and Jim’s car.” This is clearly a convenient shorthand—helped out by the fact that, normally, you can assume readers will not think that you’re writing about John, on one hand, and Jim’s car, on the other. Most pronouns do not form the possessive with an apostrophe s. “One” becomes “one’s,” but “he” becomes “his” and “I” becomes “my.” Therefore you generally cannot use shortcuts in cases of joint possession involving a pronoun. You must make both owners possessive:
his and my aunt’s house
Megan’s and his room
You can reconcile the first as equivalent to “my uncle and aunt’s house” by remembering that the apostrophe s after “aunt” also applies to “uncle”; “his” is technically replacing “uncle’s” not “uncle.”
http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/PossessivesandAttributives.html
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Tony M
: Now there's the online 'proof' Asker was looking for!
14 mins
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Yep, thought I'd give a hand. Thanks, Tony.
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Charles Davis
: Well, well! I was using the same reference in my own contribution while you posted this :) // Thanks very much, but I'm the one who should apologise, if anyone should!
1 hr
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I'm so sorry! Your answers always make a very interesting reading!
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AllegroTrans
1 day 10 hrs
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Joint possession: theory and practice
- Mike's and Sally's house
you tend to say
- Mike and Sally's house.
"Mike" here is an elliptical form of "Mike's". This is the key to the following Q&A from the Chicago Manual of Style Online, which goes on to address the point we are dealing with here:
"Q. When using a pronoun to replace the first noun when two nouns show possession of one item, which case should the pronoun be? For example, in the sentence “I’m going to my uncle and aunt’s house,” “uncle” is not in the possessive case. So which case should the pronoun be? “I’m going to him and my aunt’s house”? “I’m going to he and my aunt’s house”? Or, “I’m going to his and my aunt’s house”? And, if the answer is “his,” how do you reconcile that the pronoun is not agreeing with the noun it replaces in gender, number, and case? And what is correct if the pronoun replaces the second noun? “Megan’s and his room”? Or “Megan and his room”?
A. The trick of showing joint possession with a single apostrophe s is possible only with two items that can take an apostrophe s. Hence a car owned by John and Jim can be expressed as “John and Jim’s car.” This is clearly a convenient shorthand—helped out by the fact that, normally, you can assume readers will not think that you’re writing about John, on one hand, and Jim’s car, on the other. Most pronouns do not form the possessive with an apostrophe s. “One” becomes “one’s,” but “he” becomes “his” and “I” becomes “my.” Therefore you generally cannot use shortcuts in cases of joint possession involving a pronoun. You must make both owners possessive:
his and my aunt’s house
Megan’s and his room
You can reconcile the first as equivalent to “my uncle and aunt’s house” by remembering that the apostrophe s after “aunt” also applies to “uncle”; “his” is technically replacing “uncle’s” not “uncle.”"
http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/Po...
So the requirement that all the possessors should be in the possessive form also applies to pronouns; but since their possessive forms do not end in 's, the option of omitting 's from all but the last does not apply. Therefore it should be "your and Sally's house", not "you and Sally's house". You can't say "you house" instead of "your house", so you shouldn't say "you and Sally's house" instead of "your and Sally's house".
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And yet people do, very commonly. Judging from Google results—that rerum omnium arbiter of our times—"you and your wife's X" and "your and your wife's X" are just about equally common. It is clear that the latter, which normative grammar clearly mandates, is preferred in careful and formal writing (and speech), but the former seems natural to many native speakers. Here’s a wordreference.com query on Spanish-English translation of a phrase which means "your and your wife's full names". A native speaker comments:
"Although some might quibble over the grammar, many native speakers would say the following (and I would agree with them):
I'm going to need the following information: you and your wife's full names, just as they appear on your passports....
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2230124&lang...
Examples like the following are common:
" When both you and your wife's names are on the mortgage, you're both legally obligated to pay the debt regardless of any other circumstances."
http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/wifes-name-off-mortgage-1...
It seems clear to me that whatever normative grammar may say, native speakers tend to find it awkward to use a possessive form in joint possessive expressions for any but the last possessor. They find it awkward to say "Mike's and Sally's house", and reduce it to "Mike and Sally's house". The usage is well established, and normative grammar approves. Even if there is a real possibility of misunderstanding, as in "Mike and Sally's uncle" (one person or two?), I think most people would prefer to rephrase it, or just to say "Mike and Sally's uncle" and trust that people will understand what they mean, than to say "Mike's and Sally's uncle".
When we have pronoun plus noun, as in the example before us, "your and Sally's" is correct, but somehow awkward. It's not the kind of thing many people would come out with in informal speech. You can rephrase it, if there's a satisfactory way of doing so that doesn't change the meaning significantly and is not too cumbersome (this is by no means always the case), or you can simply reduce "your" to "you", which is what many people do. I would actually say that most people do it in normal speech. Indeed, resistance to "your and X's Y" is so strong that you can actually find a case like the following, on a law firm's website:
" You may wait one to two years for your trial, but meanwhile, both you, and your wife’s attorneys’ fees will continue to climb."
http://cordellcordell.com/practice-areas/divorce/
That comma after "you" makes it quite comical when read with a grammarian's eye, and of course no grammarian would recommend it, but I think we have to recognise that, in practice, people don't handle joint possession the way normative grammar says they should.
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Note added at 15 hrs (2014-02-23 11:36:47 GMT)
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It ocurred to me that the tendency to omit the possessive marker from possessives before the last might reflect an unconscious the idea that "Mike and Sally" or "you and Sally" are really a single joint possessor: it is the house of Mike-and-Sally, or of you-and-Sally, so Mike-and-Sally's house or you-and-Sally's house. However, that explanation wouldn't hold for "you and your wife names", which means your name plus your wife's name and is not a case of a single joint possessor.
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Note added at 15 hrs (2014-02-23 11:37:03 GMT)
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Sorry: occurred, not ocurred.
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Note added at 15 hrs (2014-02-23 11:37:35 GMT)
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And "an unconscious idea", not "an unconscious the idea".
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Note added at 15 hrs (2014-02-23 11:42:51 GMT)
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What lies behind these reflections is that although there are such things as agreed prescriptive rules of grammar which need to applied for certain purposes, grammar is not confined to them. Those who study the English language ought to pay attention to what native speakers actually say. Diachronic linguistics teaches us that usages people prefer tend to win out in the long run and turn into the prescriptive consensus.
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AllegroTrans
1 day 8 hrs
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Thanks very much for bothering!
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Discussion
As for my example sentences being stilted and unnatural, I'm sorry you think so. I don't.
So, unusually, little meeting of minds here, I'm afraid. I think there is a real issue of which you have taken no account.
On "me and Sally's": it remains my firm view that "my and Sally's house", however correct, is not natural speech, except perhaps among those who have internalised prescriptive grammar to an unusual degree.
Most speakers I know would be more likely to choose your option (2) — other than the fact that the sentence is so stilted and unnatural that they probably wouldn't say it in the first place! And certainly, in the second example, no-one I know would ever say your option (3).
This is always the problem when trying to find an example sentence to illustrate a point of grammar.
I do agree, however, that in informal, spoken language, people will probably work quite hard to get around the problem of its 'sounding funny', the solution they come up with being either to break the grammar rule in what sounds like the 'least-worst' way... or to re-phrase to avoid the issue altogether. I've heard people mix the pronoun and adjective situation — since they will say "Shall we meet round yours?" (= your place), they are quite likely to say "...yours and Sally's" without even noticing the inconsistency therein.
1. Shall we have the party at you and Sally's house?
2. Shall we have the party at your and Sally's house?
I honestly think most speakers, including myself, would say (1) without thinking, and that (2) would sound a bit stilted.
In writing, it's different. I would write "Thank you for your invitation to a party at your and Sally's house on Saturday", unless I were trying to create a colloquial effect.
To me it's even clearer with "my and Sally's house".
3. We're going to hold the party at me and Sally's house.
4. We're going to hold the party at my and Sally's house.
I can hardly imagine a normal person, not corrupted by the teachings of grammarians, saying (4). Nor would "Sally's and my house" sound natural. And no one would say "I and Sally's house".
http://www.learnamericanenglishonline.com/Blue Level/B14 Pos...
"That is my car"
"Yes, the car is yours, but the house is mine"
This is just basic English grammar.