Jan 19, 2023 17:27
1 yr ago
62 viewers *
French term
artiste-auteur
French to English
Other
General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
This term is used in Conseil d'Etat decision number 454477 (https://www.conseil-etat.fr/fr/arianeweb/CE/decision/2022-11... I understand from the following website that the term is used to cover various professions: https://caap.asso.fr/spip.php?article1025
According to the decision, the term specifically excludes performers (artistes-interprètes), so I don't know whether to go for a literal translation (artists/writers) or whether there's a better of way of translating it.
Thanks very much in advance if you're able to help me with this!
According to the decision, the term specifically excludes performers (artistes-interprètes), so I don't know whether to go for a literal translation (artists/writers) or whether there's a better of way of translating it.
Thanks very much in advance if you're able to help me with this!
Proposed translations
(English)
3 +2 | creative artist | Mpoma |
4 +2 | authors of creative works | Philippa Smith |
5 -1 | artist-author | Juliana Rangel |
4 -1 | artists and authors | philgoddard |
Proposed translations
+2
1 hr
Selected
creative artist
I'd have thought this is fairly obvious: artiste-interprète is obviously (!) a "performing artist". So what's the other type of artist ...
There's clearly a distinction, a dichotomy, a duality, a contrast: on the one hand, on the other. Combined, these two categories in principle cover all those who are (or claim to be) "artists".
There's clearly a distinction, a dichotomy, a duality, a contrast: on the one hand, on the other. Combined, these two categories in principle cover all those who are (or claim to be) "artists".
Note from asker:
Thank you so much for your suggestion, which I have selected on the basis of Alex's detailed explanation that ties in perfectly with your idea. |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Bourth
: Absolutely. Writers, composers, choreographers, film directors, etc.
3 hrs
|
Thanks
|
|
agree |
AllegroTrans
6 hrs
|
Thanks
|
|
neutral |
philgoddard
: As opposed to non-creative ones?
11 hrs
|
Yes indeed. A singer singing someone else's song is not a "creative artist".
|
|
neutral |
Lara Barnett
: The problem with this is that, through usage, the nuance of this term itself would identify more with a visual artist and risks excluding the idea of writers.
13 hrs
|
Eh? Not in the slightest. Writers are most definitely considered to be, and consider themselves, artists.
|
|
disagree |
abe(L)solano
: Translators are included in this list. I don't consider myself as an "artist": 'auteur·ices d’œuvres littéraires et dramatiques, y compris les traductions, adaptations…'
14 hrs
|
Incorrect. Translations of literary works are indeed considered to be artistic creations.
|
|
agree |
Steve Robbie
: Indeed: performing artist vs. creative artist. Artists themselves might argue that all performance is "creative", but that's by the by.
15 hrs
|
Thanks
|
|
neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: Nope. Agree with Phil and Lara
22 hrs
|
Nope
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks again!"
-1
20 mins
artists and authors
Here's the definition from Sarah's first reference:
auteur·ices d’œuvres littéraires et dramatiques, y compris les traductions, adaptations…
auteur·ices d’œuvres des arts visuels (plastiques, graphiques, photographiques, de design…),
auteur·ices d’œuvres audiovisuelles et cinématographiques…
auteur·ices d’œuvres chorégraphiques, sonores, musicales… etc.
You could almost get away with just "authors", but I'm not sure that would normally cover people like painters and photographers.
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Note added at 34 mins (2023-01-19 18:01:45 GMT)
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For simplicity, you could say "authors" and add a translator's note saying that this includes anyone who produces creative work, including visual and other artists but not performers.
auteur·ices d’œuvres littéraires et dramatiques, y compris les traductions, adaptations…
auteur·ices d’œuvres des arts visuels (plastiques, graphiques, photographiques, de design…),
auteur·ices d’œuvres audiovisuelles et cinématographiques…
auteur·ices d’œuvres chorégraphiques, sonores, musicales… etc.
You could almost get away with just "authors", but I'm not sure that would normally cover people like painters and photographers.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 34 mins (2023-01-19 18:01:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
For simplicity, you could say "authors" and add a translator's note saying that this includes anyone who produces creative work, including visual and other artists but not performers.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Philippa Smith
: Hi Phil! As I said in the discussion, the problem with this is it leaves out composers, choreographers etc. I think "authors" in the non-writerly sense is the way to go./Yes, so are artists...and your note wasn't there when I left this!
14 mins
|
Composers and choreographers are authors by anyone's definition.
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neutral |
Emmanuella
: Il s'agit de la même personne (cf. statut d'autoentrepreneur)
1 hr
|
agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: As I suggested in DBox.Think it's simplest way of including those mentioned
22 hrs
|
disagree |
Mpoma
: Check out this page: https://entreprendre.service-public.fr/vosdroits/F22388 ... clear contrast, in French law, between "artiste-interprète" and "artiste-auteur"
1 day 31 mins
|
disagree |
Adrian MM.
: auteur is not the same as écrivain, but far wider in law e.g. originator, creator, inventor, sponsor or even perpetrator of an offence https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/auteur/6555ht...
1 day 22 hrs
|
+2
39 mins
authors of creative works
Bit of a mouthful but it covers the whole array of professions:
"Authors of creative works that hold copyrights include for example writers, visual artists, photographers, script writers, directors, choreographers, composers, lyricists and translators."
https://www.kopiosto.fi/en/kopiosto/about-copyright/the-abc-...
"Authors of creative works that hold copyrights include for example writers, visual artists, photographers, script writers, directors, choreographers, composers, lyricists and translators."
https://www.kopiosto.fi/en/kopiosto/about-copyright/the-abc-...
Example sentence:
\
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
philgoddard
: You can't keep repeating "of creative works", and it's also redundant. I've already suggested just saying "authors". // Authors has a different meaning in intellectual property law.
13 mins
|
Why not? "Authors" alone might be too confusing, as could be taken as "writers".
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agree |
abe(L)solano
22 mins
|
Thanks a lot!
|
|
neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: Rather longwinded
22 hrs
|
agree |
Adrian MM.
: -> originator of ... Most English-speaking commentators on this tricky term - including one(s) repetitively (!) chanting the mantra of redundancy - are conflating auteur in the copyright, including translation copyright sense, with *écrivain/s*.
1 day 21 hrs
|
Thank you Adrian. And yes!
|
-1
3 hrs
artist-author
Un document de l’OMPI semble faire la même distinction que le Conseil d’Etat français: « The artist, author or performer »: http://www.wipo.int/wipo_magazine/en/2005/04/article_0005.ht...
Enfin, j’utiliserai un train d’union (nom composé) et non pas une barre oblique (qui risque d’être interprétée comme un « ou »).
Enfin, j’utiliserai un train d’union (nom composé) et non pas une barre oblique (qui risque d’être interprétée comme un « ou »).
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Lara Barnett
: This is not a used grammatical construction.
11 hrs
|
agree |
abe(L)solano
: Actually this is the term that appears in the EN version of (I ignore if it is a validated one): https://entreprendre.service-public.fr/vosdroits/F23749?lang...
12 hrs
|
disagree |
Mpoma
: Just because this non-existent term is included in a list on some French website doesn't mean that the error should be disseminated further.
12 hrs
|
Reference comments
1 day 1 hr
Reference:
Performing, creative, and 'interpetive' artists ...
https://egrove.olemiss.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1055&... [Guide to Planning for PERFORMING AND CREATIVE ARTISTS]
Theoretically, any activity done to a supreme degree of 'perfection' can be called art. Thus a PERFORMING ARTIST (e.g., a singer) can perform a song so skillfully and with such great expression and conviction that it can be a work of art. Ordinarily, the CREATIVE ARTIST (composer, visual artist, choreographer, etc.) is the true artist, and the performer just that, a PERFORMING ARTIST.
http://www.ndoylefineart.com/artmaking2.html
Rights Payments consists of payments to the CREATIVE ARTIST, i.e. composer or author of royalties, the performing artist when the music is performed and the producers, i.e. record companies and others in charge of the recording of the sound recordings published. Rights Payments consists of payments to the CREATIVE ARTIST, i.e. composer or author of royalties, the PERFORMING ARTIST when the music is performed and the producers, i.e. record companies and others in charge of the recording of the sound recordings published.
https://www.dst.dk/en/Statistik/dokumentation/documentationo...
The 200-odd pages here - https://www.artscouncil.ie/uploadedFiles/LWCA_Study_-_Final_... [The Living and Working Conditions of Artists in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland] refer to creative artists, performing artists, and interpretive artists
"This applies to CREATIVE ARTISTS (defined as including writers, visual artists and composers and excluding PERFORMING ARTISTS) who qualify for residency in ROI [ ... ] Following the distinction in the ROI tax exemption, the IMS survey (IMS, 1980) gathered data for ‘creative artists’ (e.g. painters and writers) and ‘INTERPRETATIVE ARTISTS’ (e.g. singers and actors)."
If anyone would care to read it from start to finish, I'd appreciate a resumé of the differences between the three.
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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2023-01-20 19:19:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Forgot the excerpt from EGROVE... first above:
Authors, songwriters, sculptors, and painters create books, plays, songs, sculptures, and paintings. When produced in multiple formats for marketing, the CREATIVE ARTISTS are generally selling the right to use or reproduce their creations to a licensee, for a specified period of time. The licensee receives the right to mass produce the property for the agreed-upon time period and earns the revenue from sales of the mass produced version. One of the licensee’s costs of producing the property is a royalty fee that is paid to the creator. The royalty payment is generally based upon the number of units sold by the licensee. Alternatively, PERFORMING ARTISTS perform the works of creative artists. Their performances, however, can be captured and preserved for replay through a variety of mediums. For example, sales of a music album will generate royalties not only for the CREATIVE ARTIST songwriters, but also for the PERFORMING ARTIST musicians.
Theoretically, any activity done to a supreme degree of 'perfection' can be called art. Thus a PERFORMING ARTIST (e.g., a singer) can perform a song so skillfully and with such great expression and conviction that it can be a work of art. Ordinarily, the CREATIVE ARTIST (composer, visual artist, choreographer, etc.) is the true artist, and the performer just that, a PERFORMING ARTIST.
http://www.ndoylefineart.com/artmaking2.html
Rights Payments consists of payments to the CREATIVE ARTIST, i.e. composer or author of royalties, the performing artist when the music is performed and the producers, i.e. record companies and others in charge of the recording of the sound recordings published. Rights Payments consists of payments to the CREATIVE ARTIST, i.e. composer or author of royalties, the PERFORMING ARTIST when the music is performed and the producers, i.e. record companies and others in charge of the recording of the sound recordings published.
https://www.dst.dk/en/Statistik/dokumentation/documentationo...
The 200-odd pages here - https://www.artscouncil.ie/uploadedFiles/LWCA_Study_-_Final_... [The Living and Working Conditions of Artists in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland] refer to creative artists, performing artists, and interpretive artists
"This applies to CREATIVE ARTISTS (defined as including writers, visual artists and composers and excluding PERFORMING ARTISTS) who qualify for residency in ROI [ ... ] Following the distinction in the ROI tax exemption, the IMS survey (IMS, 1980) gathered data for ‘creative artists’ (e.g. painters and writers) and ‘INTERPRETATIVE ARTISTS’ (e.g. singers and actors)."
If anyone would care to read it from start to finish, I'd appreciate a resumé of the differences between the three.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2023-01-20 19:19:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Forgot the excerpt from EGROVE... first above:
Authors, songwriters, sculptors, and painters create books, plays, songs, sculptures, and paintings. When produced in multiple formats for marketing, the CREATIVE ARTISTS are generally selling the right to use or reproduce their creations to a licensee, for a specified period of time. The licensee receives the right to mass produce the property for the agreed-upon time period and earns the revenue from sales of the mass produced version. One of the licensee’s costs of producing the property is a royalty fee that is paid to the creator. The royalty payment is generally based upon the number of units sold by the licensee. Alternatively, PERFORMING ARTISTS perform the works of creative artists. Their performances, however, can be captured and preserved for replay through a variety of mediums. For example, sales of a music album will generate royalties not only for the CREATIVE ARTIST songwriters, but also for the PERFORMING ARTIST musicians.
Note from asker:
Alex, thanks very much for this detailed explanation! It definitely seems to fit the context! Sarah |
Discussion
not "creatives" though and here's why not https://medium.com/@MikeRand/when-creative-became-a-noun-f73...