| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Language Legislation Thread poster: Raf Uzar
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 18:25
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Do they allow names to be in more than one language (i.e. in the official one as well as in another language) or is the law that you're not allowed to use the other language at all?
Subject edited by staff or moderator 2009-07-03 14:10 GMT
What was the original subject -- "language facism"? It's a direct quote from the blog post in question.
| | | | Raf Uzar
Poland
Local time: 18:25
Polish to English
TOPIC STARTER | Answering two points | Jul 6, 2009 |
Samuel,
To answer your last question first - yes, the original title was language fascism but we thought it better to change this.
Now, to your first question - as far as I am aware, two languages ARE allowed and Slovakian must be one of them.
Raf
| | | | | Language is person; person is language | Jul 6, 2009 |
John Rawlins wrote:
I am sure George Orwell have had something to say about modern 'linguistic standardisation institutes'.
Very certainly. He above all understood the nature of man and how altering the language alters the person. That's why we should not alter the language at all and should let people speak and write how the wish! It's our individual freedom we are talking about.
| | | | | 'high Slovakian', I guess that means 'Central Slovak' ...; details of the new law | Jul 7, 2009 |
Rosina Peixoto wrote: I think that fostering their native language is something that all countries should do. If we have a word meaning exactly the same as another one in a foreign language, why should we choose the "foreign" word? I do not think this resolution is undermining the citizens´rights. However, I do not consider fining people who do not adhere to this act will be the best course of action. http://www.wieninternational.at/en/node/6598 "The government of prime minister Fico has not made itself particularly popular with a new language initiative announced for the year 2008 by the Ministry of Culture in Bratislava. The government intends to teach proper "Queen's Slovakian" to civil servants, teachers and journalists. This will be monitored, and fines imposed if necessary, should these professions fail to spread "high Slovakian" in accordance with the wishes of the Ministry of Culture. The planned measures include compulsory language courses for civil servants, council employees and teachers. There are also plans for Slovakian seminars for all university students. Over and above this, a special "state language act" will oblige all media to disseminate a cultivated "high" Slovakian. Under the terms of a special educational brief, public broadcasting media will be obliged to broadcast in correct Slovakian. Experts at the Ministry of Culture will monitor the language quality of the media at regular intervals." I wish we could all speak "high Spanish" in my country. ... Regards, Rosina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_language#Dialects ... Central Slovak forms the basis of the present-day standard language. ...
[ Other background which may be of interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_language#Orthography ... Most foreign words receive Slovak spelling immediately or after some time. ... Personal and geographical names from other languages using Latin alphabets keep their original spelling, unless there is a fully Slovak form for the name ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_language#Relationships_to_other_languages ...The Slovak language has been influenced by many languages, including Czech, Polish, and German. ... Slovak went through long periods of close contact with both Hungarian and German. Both languages have left their mark ... ]
@ Samuel: Official report from Radio Slovakia International:
... doctors, nurses and caretakers in health care and social facilities in municipalities with various ethnic minorities may speak with patients and clients also in the language of the national minority. ... Television stations will be able to broadcast live programs with simultaneous interpretation into the state language. Texts on memorials and plaques will have to be in both the state language and a foreign language ...
http://www.slovakradio.sk/inetportal/rsi/core.php?page=showSprava&id=18578&lang=2
http://www.spectator.sk/articles/view/35828/10/parliament_adopts_bill_fining_poor_slovak_linguists.html ... sanctions for breaking the rules of standard Slovak in official communications ... If shortcomings and mistakes appear and these aren't corrected after repeated contacts from the Culture Ministry, fines ... may be imposed. ... minorities can use their native languages when speaking to doctors and healthcare personnel and at social facilities provided that they do so in towns and villages where at least 20 percent of the inhabitants come from a minority. ... public events ... can be opened in a minority language but must also be interpreted into the state language. ... An amending proposal submitted by the Slovak National Party (SNS) that would have required that every state official should speak Slovak fluently was not approved.
[Slovak's position relative to other languages in the EU: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union#Language_skills_of_citizens ]
[ Budapest Times: http://www.budapesttimes.hu/content/view/12458/220/
‘Arrogant’ Slovak language law raises howls of protest Written by Attila Leitner Tuesday, 07 July 2009 As an uncomfortable prelude to the meeting of the premiers of the two neighbouring states, the Slovak parliament last Tuesday approved an amendment to its language law that has outraged many Hungarian politicians. ... ]
Ha! This is what I was looking for:
3.1 p15: ...The Slovak law on the state language and its system ofargumentation has been compared to France’s language law and to the United States’“English Only” movement (Kontra 1995/96). Critics have not referred to the fact that this law is similar to language laws passed in Poland or in the Baltic states, and its passing forms an integral part of the national revival movements of the 1990s, characteristic of the countries of the former Eastern bloc. ...
http://www.ciemen.org/mercator/pdf/wp23eng.pdf
[Edited at 2009-07-07 10:55 GMT]
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Raf Uzar
Poland
Local time: 18:25
Polish to English
TOPIC STARTER | Background info | Jul 8, 2009 |
Many thanks for this brilliant 'pack' of background info.
Raf
| | | | | That's OK. And in Poland ... (?) | Jul 8, 2009 |
(Were you referring to me? ) No worries, Raf. I have met Slovakians from time to time in real life. So, what's the story in Poland, if one might ask.
Lesley
[Edited at 2009-07-09 08:50 GMT]
| | | | Raf Uzar
Poland
Local time: 18:25
Polish to English
TOPIC STARTER
Lesley,
Yes, I was. Thanks.
The situation in Poland is quite dissimilar. There was a moment when the legislators were thinking of doing something similar (around 8 years ago if memory serves) but nothing came of it.
| | | | Kaspars Melkis
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:25
English to Latvian
+ ...
| sounds familiar (Latvian experience) | Jul 10, 2009 |
I think that Latvia has the most Draconian laws regarding public language use that may even violate basic human rights.
The public agencies are not allowed to provide public information for general use in any language except Latvian. Recently when an employee of the Welfare Ministry took liberty to provide the Russian translation along with the official Latvian press release, it created a political scandal and outrage from nationalists. According to the Latvian laws it was illegal ... See more I think that Latvia has the most Draconian laws regarding public language use that may even violate basic human rights.
The public agencies are not allowed to provide public information for general use in any language except Latvian. Recently when an employee of the Welfare Ministry took liberty to provide the Russian translation along with the official Latvian press release, it created a political scandal and outrage from nationalists. According to the Latvian laws it was illegal to do.
This release was about important changes in distribution of welfare payments and considering that there is a sizable Russian speaking population with limited or no Latvian language skills, it seemed a natural thing to do. Besides no additional public funds were used for translation and no one was questioning the translations skills of the employee who did the translation.
Similarly absurd situation occurred with the public transportation services from Riga airport to the city. Bus drivers sold tickets to tourists but forgot to mention that there is additional fee for luggage (probably due to language issue). Consequently ticket controllers fined those unsuspecting tourists for not buying luggage tickets. It all looked like a scam and complaints arise why there is no information about fares in English. The initial response from the transit managers was that the tourists should learn Latvian. Then it was clarified that it was actually illegal for a public company to provide such information in other languages. It took several government meetings to decide on an exception in order put a poster with information in English and Russian at airport bus stop.
Similarly Latvian Ombudsman's office was fined by Latvian Language Center for distributing booklets to public in other languages (Russian and English).
Apparently all these ill-guided laws were passed to force the Russian speaking population to learn and use Latvian. Whatever the motives, this policy doesn't seem to be very effective except for alienating Latvian population and damaging country's reputation.
The current economic crisis has proved to be the best motivator to learn languages anyway. According to the reports, the number of Russians wanting to receive attestation certificate of Latvian language skills (necessary in getting certain jobs) has surged so much that it will take several years for the examination committee to test all applicants. When it comes to language learning carrot always works better than stick.
[Edited at 2009-07-10 08:26 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Imposition = poverty | Jul 10, 2009 |
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
The current economic crisis has proved to be the best motivator to learn languages anyway. According to the reports, the number of Russians wanting to receive attestation certificate of Latvian language skills (necessary in getting certain jobs) has surged so much that it will take several years for the examination committee to test all applicants. When it comes to language learning carrot always works better than stick.
And it appears to me that crisis in Latvia will continue... probably because of these absurd language impositions. Freedom always brings wealth; imposition always brings poverty.
| | | | Raf Uzar
Poland
Local time: 18:25
Polish to English
TOPIC STARTER
Kaspars,
I think we all need to remember why these things happen and differentiate the reasons behind different countries imposing draconian legislation. The French 'linguistic authorities' (pardon the phrase), for example, believe French should be 'protected' from the corruptions of English. Slovakia has had a recent burst of right-wing leaders. Latvia, on the other hand, is attempting to deal with a difficult history and a large Russian minority which, as we all know, were not cordially... See more Kaspars,
I think we all need to remember why these things happen and differentiate the reasons behind different countries imposing draconian legislation. The French 'linguistic authorities' (pardon the phrase), for example, believe French should be 'protected' from the corruptions of English. Slovakia has had a recent burst of right-wing leaders. Latvia, on the other hand, is attempting to deal with a difficult history and a large Russian minority which, as we all know, were not cordially invited into the country. Latvia's attitude is more of an anti-Russian statement which, although not being tolerant or acceptable, is understandable. Latvians are, in a sense, fighting for their identity. Modern Latvia is going through what every modern democracy went through when shaping its identity. When forming your identity it is often easiest not to state who or what you are but who or what you are not, hence the anti-Russian stance. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Identities don't have rights; people do! | Jul 10, 2009 |
Raf Uzar wrote:
Latvians are, in a sense, fighting for their identity.
This is the mistake that is creating so much trouble and so much suffering all over Europe. Languages and identities don't have rights; people do! Searching for an identity will always mean make a big part of the population suffer.
Russians living in Latvia are now citizens of Latvia, no matter their origin. They probably did not choose to live in Latvia either but cannot leave now. Let's respect people they way they are! The people make the language, not the opposite. Let's not try to hammer whole populations into the scheme of a few!
[Edited at 2009-07-10 14:40 GMT]
| | | | Kaspars Melkis
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:25
English to Latvian
+ ...
| I am against punishment of old people | Jul 10, 2009 |
I agree with the basic principle that if you live in a country, you should learn its local language. It was painful for Latvians too going to a restaurant, for example, and not receiving service in Latvian. Appropriate laws protecting the local language are justified, so that we all can enjoy our regained freedom.
But let's not turn it into a revenge towards innocent people. The myth that Russian population in Latvia hate Latvian language is kept alive by nationalists. The reality i... See more I agree with the basic principle that if you live in a country, you should learn its local language. It was painful for Latvians too going to a restaurant, for example, and not receiving service in Latvian. Appropriate laws protecting the local language are justified, so that we all can enjoy our regained freedom.
But let's not turn it into a revenge towards innocent people. The myth that Russian population in Latvia hate Latvian language is kept alive by nationalists. The reality is that most Russian would like to be able to speak perfect Latvian but are simply unable to learn it quickly.
I have witnessed several immigrant communities in the US and many immigrants are unable to learn English because they are always working hard for low pay and only trying to support their families. They have no time and energy left for learning languages. This very much applies to Latvia as well. Latvia is one of the poorest countries in the EU and it is not a secret that Russian population's income is below local average. Most people are just working hard to be able to put food on their plates. Besides there are no language courses free of charge like ESL in many US cities.
100% of the new generation will be speaking Latvian in any case even if they use other languages at home. But when some old babushka is unable to understand how to fill the application for the reduced fare transit card because it is illegal to provide translation in Russian, it does not make any sense. According to the words of the ministry employee who volunteered to provide Russian translation, it was done to avoid spreading misinformation that often happens when people with poor Latvian reads a press release and misunderstands what it really says. Also many people who can't understand Latvian at all call the ministry and they have to spend a lot of time explaining them all this information in Russian again and again. Providing basic information in other languages has never hurt anyone. As long as it is viable. Why make it illegal? ▲ Collapse
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Uldis Liepkalns
Latvia
Local time: 19:25
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
I think that Latvia has the most Draconian laws regarding public language use that may even violate basic human rights.
Hi Kaspar,
while skipping the political and human rights issues, are you aware that in order to observe Language Purity, we are obliged to translate "rooter" in Latvian using old since times immemorial truly Latvian word "marštutizators" for it (precise chatater for character of the Ruussian term), while you may be fined if you wil use the complete foreign term "rūteris"?
| | | | Raf Uzar
Poland
Local time: 18:25
Polish to English
TOPIC STARTER
Tomas,
I'm sure most people taking part in the forum agree with you. I was just trying to understand WHY this is happening. In order for us, as linguists and translators, to cope with situations like this we really need to understand both sides of the argument. Why has Slovakia and Latvia resorted to such draconian measures? Would could have possibly pushed them towards this?
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