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Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

Herrschaft

English translation:

the master

Added to glossary by Edwin Miles
Dec 27, 2014 23:40
9 yrs ago
2 viewers *
German term

Herrschaft

German to English Art/Literary History idiomatic historical usage in a novel
As in "heißes Wasser in die Zimmer der **Herrschaft bringen**." I'm struggling to find a good way to express the idea of "Herrschaft" in this particular context. The sentence is spoken by a servant!

The sense is of a wealthy businessman who owns a huge manor house in London in the 1860s. He is not one of the gentry or nobility (so can't be referred to as "lord"). But he has made a fortune in India and is extremely charming and good-looking, so high-society accepts him among them. The word ought to cover the man himself with or without his high-society guests, who may be present for a party or even staying the night.

Other sentences with "Herrschaft" used in a similar way, also from a servant's point of view:
Der Butler spricht das Gebet und dann geht es in die Zimmer der Herrschaft.
...denn die Herrschaft hatte auch nachts Wünsche, und jederzeit konnte jemand gerufen werden.

In other places in the book, I can use "lords and ladies," but not here because it's only one man with or without his guests. About the best I've come up with is "master's," but that only covers the man himself.

Any ideas?
Proposed translations (English)
3 +5 the master
3 +3 ladies and gentlemen of the house
3 +3 Upstairs + specific room
3 +1 behind the green baize door
3 +1 gentry
3 the Sir/Sir's
3 gentlefolk
3 the gentleman's

Discussion

Jeanie Eldon Dec 29, 2014:
masters' chambers Again master comes to mind - although "masters' chambers" could also be perceived as kinky :)
Yorkshireman Dec 29, 2014:
And another... ... the "nobs"
Yorkshireman Dec 29, 2014:
Another alternative I referring only to the master, mistress and their children, servants would often call them "the family"
Bernhard Sulzer Dec 29, 2014:
The honorable sir/gentleman is just an idea - maybe it could work for you just for this context?
See the relationship between Herrschaft and honorable here: http://tinyurl.com/o695vfc
Bernhard Sulzer Dec 29, 2014:
Clarification Herrschaft always just implies the boss(es) or the whole family of the bosses so to speak. The term does not imply guests or owners of the house AND their guests. Of course, when there are guests, the employees might say "Die Herrschaft möchte ..." meaning the lady or gentleman of the house or both or the whole family want something for themselves or for themselves and their guests.
"Herrschaften" with -en is different.
http://de.thefreedictionary.com/Herrschaft 4. altmodisch Person(en), in dessen / deren Haushalt jd angestellt ist Die Herrschaft darf jetzt nicht gestört werden.
Werner Maurer Dec 28, 2014:
singular I'm pretty sure Herrschaft, in this case, refers to a single individual. Maybe "His Lordship" in quotes, with or without caps, or even without quotes if you can make it obvious that the writer is being sardonic (if that's the case, that is). Or something along the lines of "His Well-Respectedness" or some other half-silly expression that you invent that clearly doesn't exist in the real world. Also, depending on the tone and level of humor in the original, it can be perfectly acceptable to actually say His Lordship, if it's clear enough from the preceding text that His Lordship is not, in fact, an actual lord. I've seen dogs and cats referred to as their lordships, fercryinoutloud.
Wendy Streitparth Dec 28, 2014:
@ Yorkshireman: sorry if I repeated anything. As I said below, I was squinting into the sun at the time - something one hasn't had the pleasure of doing hereabouts for quite some time! HNY.
Yorkshireman Dec 28, 2014:
Perhaps worth considering If it is a servant talking, a typical expression could be simply "THEM", as opposed to "US".

Or even " Tek't 'ot watter up to yon fat git an is gawky missus in't blue room". :-)
Yorkshireman Dec 28, 2014:
Hi Wendy, Already suggested something similar at 1 hour:

Hot water would simply be brought "upstairs" to the specific room, for instance, "blue bedroom/front bedroom/guest bedroom/master's bedroom".

Have a HNY!
Wendy Streitparth Dec 28, 2014:
If no-one comes up with the right suggestion, maybe you could just say:
"..take hot water up to the rooms of the master and his guests".
BrigitteHilgner Dec 28, 2014:
Pons Collins Großwörterbuch Neubearbeitung 1999
Herrschaft (= Dienstherrschaft) master and mistress
die Herrschaften (= Damen und Herren) the ladies and gentlemen
hohe Herrschaften - persons of high rank or standing
Edwin Miles (asker) Dec 27, 2014:
Another similar example: Fred ließ sie durch den Dienstbotengang in die herrschaftlichen Räume treten. Manorial, perhaps? But that would cover ALL of the rooms in the house, including the servants quarters, wouldn't it?

Proposed translations

+5
6 mins
Selected

the master

An idea that might fit.
Note from asker:
As mentioned, I've tried that, but it isn't inclusive enough in this context.
Peer comment(s):
agree Thayenga : During that time "masters" was the proper term used by servants. :)
7 hrs
agree Colin Newberry : Hello Jeanie. First thing that occurred to me w/o looking at all the answers. Everything else refers to a class/category and not a person waiting for me to bring his water. And if I did know it was his wife I'd send a girl to "the/her mistress. OK?
11 hrs
agree Pauline Alexiou
12 hrs
agree Clive Phillips : It can only refer to the master. Am not sure why the asker believes it can include other persons (e.g. the master's guests). It would have to be in the plural in that case (cf. Brigitte's discussion entry).
23 hrs
agree Horst Huber (X) : "Die Zimmer", clearly in the plural. "Herrschaft" definitely a collective noun, even if there is only one referent. Could it be something like the "master's quarters/rooms"?
1 day 2 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Although this clearly isn't a collective noun (as 'Herrschaft' must be in the original), it's also pretty clear that "master," though I precluded it and was looking for something else, is as good as I'm going to get, so I'm just going to have to rephrase some sentences. This also generated some useful comments, so thank you!"
+3
27 mins

ladies and gentlemen of the house

Personally, I would use 'masters' as this can be considered to be gender-neutral but, as you don't want to use this, "ladies and gentlemen of the house" is the next best thing I can find. This also ties in with 'lords and ladies' which you have mentioned you have already used.

This can be seen in the first of the rules at the bottom of this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2207935/Downton-Ab...
Note from asker:
A useful article, thanks for the link!
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard
30 mins
agree Thayenga : During that time "masters" was the proper term used by servants. Your translation fits the context as well. :)
7 hrs
agree Lucyna Długołęcka
13 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
32 mins

behind the green baize door

Tricky one but the green baize door was traditionally the barrier between the servants and the family - see http://www.greenbaizedoor.com/about.php. Maybe you could use upstairs/downstairs" but it may not work for that specific house
Peer comment(s):
disagree Colin Newberry : Can you imagine someone standing there saying it? By the time he's finished the bloody water's cold.
10 hrs
Pretty daft disagree. This is clearly something that crops up a number of times and it is not going to be a case of referring to whoever it is all the time as "the master". I also put "upstairs/downstairs". Going to require getting out of "the box" a bit
agree Lancashireman : with upstairs/downstairs at 32 mins, an idea that Edwin can work into his text.
18 hrs
Thanks Andrew
agree Bernhard Sulzer : w/ Andrew
1 day 6 hrs
Thanks Bernhard
Something went wrong...
+3
1 hr

Upstairs + specific room

If the "menials" had been talking about their employer, his family and guests, the term would have been "upstairs". The domain of the servants was referred to as "downstairs" (kitchen, boot room, scullery, pantry, wine cellar etc .)

Hot water would simply be brought "upstairs" to the specific room, for instance, "blue bedroom/front bedroom/guest bedroom/master's bedroom".

Otherwise, the particular rooms would be mentioned by name - e.g. the parlour, the sitting room, the library, the music room, the salon, the dining room, the breakfast room, etc. As in "Mistress sed oi should bring tea upstairs to't mornin' room".

As an instruction by the butler to the maid "Make sure the master's guest/master/mistress have/has piping hot water in the XXX bedroom when they rise. Open the curtains and politely wish them a good morning - don't forget to curtsey on leaving the room. Do not attempt to enter into conversation, they are above your station. Upstairs is not your world."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-12-28 00:49:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Servants would be permanently on call to answer the needs of "upstairs" at every ring of any of a row of bells - usually in the kitchen - each of which was connected to a "bell-pull" in each individual room.
Peer comment(s):
agree Danik 2014
25 mins
Thanks, Danik - have a great start to the New Year!
agree Charles Stanford : Yes, as suggested in my answer a bit earlier...! ;)
11 hrs
Thank you, Charles - HNY!
agree Bernhard Sulzer
1 day 6 hrs
Thanks, Bernhard
Something went wrong...
+1
10 hrs

gentry

Thoush it wouldn't fit in all cases.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2014-12-28 10:16:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Definition of gentry: people of good social position, specifically the class of people next below the nobility in position and birth.
https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q="gentry" SYNONYM

I now see you ruled this out (sun was blinding me!), sorry. I feel there is something else, which escapes me: wait till Helen goes online!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2014-12-28 10:44:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another suggestion: gentlefolk
Peer comment(s):
agree Yorkshireman : In the sense of the "landed gentry" - owners of large properties with a large amount of land. Gentlefolk would be the villagers - at least the freehold farmers, professionals and traders amongst them.
1 hr
Something went wrong...
12 hrs

the Sir/Sir's

A butler's term regarding his master, often spoke in the kitchen among the servants- young sir, if it fits.
Something went wrong...
1 day 5 hrs

gentlefolk

The term fits the Victorian period, reflects the same tone and register as Herrschaft, covers masters and mistresses as well as house guests. The only drawback is it cannot be applied to a single person.

"Servants talk about people; gentlefolk discuss things."
- Victorian adage
Something went wrong...
2 days 10 hrs

the gentleman's

... the gentleman's room ...
Something went wrong...
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