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операция иссечения
стабилизированный сажей
Feb 8, 2016 01:01
8 yrs ago
Russian term

Ему было одновременно весело и грустно

Russian to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
I've never found a satisfactory translation for "ему было весело". All the English words that are semantically close are no longer in common use - merry, jolly, etc. "He was having fun" is the closest I can come up with, but it's not great - and it doesn't work well for this phrase.
Ideas, folks?
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 He felt joy and sadness at the same time
3 +8 He was happy and sad at the same time
3 +4 He had a mixed feeling of joy and sadness.
4 He felt bittersweet

Discussion

Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Feb 8, 2016:
Happy like kid in a candy store without a penny in his pocket or a bird with a French fry and no tree to alight on.
Katerina O. Feb 8, 2016:
You may also try 'enjoy', e.g. 'he was enjoying himself but with a touch of sadness'. Another option for 'весело' could be 'cheerful'.
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Feb 8, 2016:
Translating mood is like using a scale without knowledge of its reference point or the size of graduation marks.
Tevah_Trans Feb 8, 2016:
Quite honestly, aren't we over-thinking this a bit? Happy/sad or joy/sadness will indeed match the original Russian if they were to be translated back, like Anzhelika said. Depending on the context, one might be tempted to say "giddy and subdued", especially if one wanted it to reek of verbosity.

As to asking the natives - I'm one, and, The Misha - I think you're one, as I've tracked your tenure here with some interest. I believe you're right on with your analysis.
The Misha Feb 8, 2016:
Easy ain't much fun. I am with you on this, JW. I also fully support the proposition that if you take a job at all, you'd better make damn sure you do the best job of it you possibly can. So there's no disagreement whatsoever. All I am saying is that whatever your particular word choice chances are you will have to settle for something less than perfect - in this particular case as in many others. That you are still looking probably means that you are a better optimist than I am, is all. That said, I wish you good luck with your project and would be curious to know what particular wording you decide to go with in the end.

@MacroJanus. I do not for a second question the rationale behind your choice. All I am saying is that "I feel bittersweet" gives me this little nagging feeling of being a tad off. Not by much, just a tiny little bit. I know I would never phrase it this way, and the examples you give do not convince me I should. There's plenty of bad prose on the net. Or maybe it's just me.
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Feb 8, 2016:
Re bittersweet. We are given snippets of text, without underlying background. Our translations can be literal, as most here are, and need not be repeated. I chose a rather daring interpretation, just in case it fits the mood of the unknown text. Using the Anglo-Saxon word "bittersweet" also has a more direct emotional appeal that involves more than one sense.
JW Narins (asker) Feb 8, 2016:
Misha, thanks. Agree with most of that. And about the state of contemporary Russian prose, but let's say I've made the judgment this *is* worth it.
What I'm questioning is this: "the further away you go in search of that elusive fata morgana, the worse you fare in terms or readability and style" That statement presumes that the less obvious solution will always be "going further [away]," will always sound more contrived than the obvious one, and that just isn't so. The best answer isn't always "compromise," the currently fashionalbe answer; it's often "keep working." No one promised us it would be easy!
That's t
Anzhelika Kuznetsova Feb 8, 2016:
I realize that And that is why I am asking. Those are examples from books, but some books are just not the best reference.

With those examples, I can't tell.
The Misha Feb 8, 2016:
A lot of things google How about we ask the natives for their take on this? They gotta be out there somewhere.
Anzhelika Kuznetsova Feb 8, 2016:
@The Misha Regarding that bittersweet feeling, but not feeling bittersweet conundrum.
Is that just your personal preference or really a bad style? It googles otherwise into plenty of usage examples, like in the books below. Hence my question.

Nothing to do with appropriateness of the suggested translation here, just usage-wise.
The Misha Feb 8, 2016:
On a separate note, I hope you will agree that only precious few authors merit that kind of individual word scrutiny in translation. Speaking of the currently living Russians, there's only one such author in my book, and either way, it's mostly about WHAT he says rather than HOW. The bulk of modern fiction, commercial or otherwise, needs to be heavily doctored before (or during) any attempt at translation to be remotely palatable - and that's before even asking the question of who needs any of that translated mush when we have plenty of our own, made right here in the good old US of A.

Incidentally, this is also why even the best of texts get edited (or at least they should).
The Misha Feb 8, 2016:
As you wish, but I still disagree. Using your own framework (to the extent one can generalize out of context), veselyi i grustnyi and happy and sad do indeed match each other function-wise - they are just phrased somewhat differently. If I had paid more attention in my general linguistics class back at the time, I guess I'd be talking about semantic fields, or whatever they are, not fully matching, or something to that effect. Happy and sad also have the benefit of being the immediate shoo-in here, unlike joyous, which to me feels a tad contrived, and the further away you go in search of that elusive fata morgana, the worse you fare in terms or readability and style (again, that's a broad generalization; to me, personally, one of the most important things when writing or translating fiction is the inner rhythm, but that's a separate discussion altogether). In the age when literature is increasingly about book sales rather than anything else, this cannot be a good thing. That's what I meant by "who cares what the original says". It has to be a good read (and, presumably, that also means "natural," "authentic," "credible" and what not).To match your Shklovsky, how about Stanislavsky's "Ne veryu"?
Anzhelika Kuznetsova Feb 8, 2016:
happy and sad at the same time If I were to translate that back into Russian, I'd most likely go for "весело/радостно и грустно одновременно". Nothing with счастье/счастлив or anything of that sort; it just wouldn't sound natural to me otherwise.
Just in case this might help.
LilianNekipelov Feb 8, 2016:
Nothing about having fun. a totally wrong understanding
JW Narins (asker) Feb 8, 2016:
Ah, but it's so much more complex. It has to read well - but it also has to reproduce (to the extent humanly possible) all the functions of the original text. THAT is what literature is all about. (And that's what Skhlovsky meant when he wrote, correctly, that literature is built of devices.) The point is to try NOT to change things, presuming that a solution will be forced, but to find the unforced solution. In this case, the context requires "весело" to mean what it means. Joyous is closer than happy, but I'd like to do better. And the fact that the solution isn't obvious is a good reason to keep thinking about it (and to see what your colleagues might come up with).
The Misha Feb 8, 2016:
I am afraid you're looking for a perfect verbatim solution that just isn't there. Let's face it, things are simply formulated differently in different languages more often than not. What you do then is take what comes as a natural choice in your source and replace it with sth that would be just as natural coming from a native speaker of your target language under the same circumstances. Trying to force something else into the mold to follow the letter of the original would be just that, a forced solution, and it would feel that way. I don't think that's the way to go, not in a creative text anyway.

Come to think of it, I really should make this my professional motto: "Who cares what the original says - as long as the translation reads well":) Isn't that what translating literature is all about anyway?

Nice exercise though. Thanks for asking.

Proposed translations

+2
40 mins
Selected

He felt joy and sadness at the same time

..

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Note added at 17 hrs (2016-02-08 18:20:19 GMT)
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Quite honestly, aren't we over-thinking this a bit? Happy/sad or joy/sadness will indeed match the original Russian if they were to be translated back, like Anzhelika said. Depending on the context, one might be tempted to say "giddy and subdued", especially if one wanted it to reek of verbosity.

As to asking the natives - I'm one, and, The Misha - I think you're one, as I've tracked your tenure here with some interest. I believe you're right on with your analysis.
Note from asker:
This is for both answers currently there - yes, that phrase immediately comes to mind, and it sounds good, but "весело" really isn't "happy."
Peer comment(s):
agree The Misha : Sure thing, this works.
2 hrs
agree LilianNekipelov : yes, or joyful and sad.
7 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+8
23 mins

He was happy and sad at the same time

My take on it

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Note added at 1 hr (2016-02-08 02:34:42 GMT)
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веселый(transitive)

adj. cheerful, merry, happy, glad; sprightly, lively, chirpy

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Note added at 1 hr (2016-02-08 02:36:00 GMT)
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RU dict box app

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Note added at 4 hrs (2016-02-08 05:51:57 GMT)
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1. USA (joyful) «Subjective, Positive Feelings & Emotions, qualifying»
synonyms
joyful, happy, blithe, mirthful, cheerful, content, glad, jolly, merry, beaming, beaming with joy, blitheful, cheery, convivial, elated, exultant, gay, gay in disposition, gleeful, jovial, light-hearted, lighthearted, lively, overjoyed, playful, radiant, sprightly, blithesome, chirk, debonaire, jaunty, jocular, Great Britainbucked «Informal», Etc., Thesaurus Magic App
Note from asker:
This is for both answers currently there - yes, that phrase immediately comes to mind, and it sounds good, but "весело" really isn't "happy."
Peer comment(s):
agree The Misha : For once, I have no reason to argue with you. I guess, there's still hope, eh?:)
2 hrs
There's always hope :)
agree Jack Doughty
6 hrs
Thank you, Jack!
agree Katerina O.
7 hrs
Thank you, Katerina!
agree LilianNekipelov : I would say "he felt".
7 hrs
Thank you, Lilian!
agree Anzhelika Kuznetsova
9 hrs
Thank you, Anzhelika!
agree Tatiana Lammers
17 hrs
Thank you, Tatiana!
agree Elena Va
17 hrs
Thank you, Elena!
agree danya
3 days 8 hrs
Thank you, Danya!
Something went wrong...
+4
6 hrs

He had a mixed feeling of joy and sadness.

IMHO. Depending of what follows, it can be: "With a mixed feeling of joy and sadness, he ....."
Peer comment(s):
agree Anzhelika Kuznetsova
3 hrs
Спасибо!
agree Susan Welsh
4 hrs
Thank you, Susan!
agree Elena Va
22 hrs
Спасибо!
agree Natalia Olshanskaya Robinson
1 day 13 hrs
Спасибо!
Something went wrong...
1 hr

He felt bittersweet

Two films one at the same time.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2016-02-08 11:28:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

2. both pleasant and painful or regretful: a bittersweet memory.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bittersweet
ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
something that is bittersweet; especially : pleasure alloyed with pain
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bittersweet
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The definition of bittersweet is a combination of both bitter and sweet, or an emotional feeling that is a mixture of both happy and sad.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/bittersweet#KTWQDoqbvlZwUe3b.9...
ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
containing a ​mixture of ​sadness and ​happiness:
The bittersweet end to the ​movie is just ​right.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/bitter...
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He felt bittersweet—happy that he would be able to pursue his research and ...
https://books.google.com/books?id=kjD9tImpT0IC&pg=PA226&lpg=...
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At one time he would have jumped at that opportunity, but now he felt bittersweet about it.
https://books.google.com/books?id=urEfAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT24&lpg=P...
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He felt bittersweet from the long time reunion. “So Baronia has returned and we've been called to awaken again.” He turned towards Alistor to face him formeye
https://books.google.com/books?id=oZNOAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT211&lpg=...
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He felt bittersweet aboutthe night having ended: he wanted Emily to come over, butthe idea ofhim trying anything beyondkissing with hisinjuries wouldhavebeen
https://books.google.com/books?id=PZCNAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT112&lpg=...
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When Fielding won the Hambletonian Oaks with Wild Honey, he felt bittersweet about the victory because of what had happened to Spirit To
http://www.hambletonian.org/resources/HertrickOCT162016.html
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Donald Thorsen said he felt bittersweet watching the dedication of highway 19 to his son Brandon - killed in Iraq in September of 2007.
http://www.wcjb.com/local-news/2008/07/highway-dedicated-fal...

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Note added at 12 hrs (2016-02-08 13:03:05 GMT)
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He felt glee and sadness/He was gleeful and sad/melancholy at the same time.
He was overcome with the feeling of glee and sadness at the same time.
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Peer comment(s):
neutral The Misha : I don't think you can "feel bittersweet". It sure can be a "bittersweet feeling," but not the other way around. It's a usage thing - a small one to be sure, but it makes all the difference here. All due respect.
1 hr
The feeling is mutual.
neutral fazil : not the way I understand 'bittersweet'.
7 hrs
It is kind of you to help out here.
Something went wrong...
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