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Trilvork
Ter studie.
Jul 16, 2016 18:55
7 yrs ago
1 viewer *
Dutch term

krijgshof

Dutch to English Law/Patents Law (general) military
In a text I am doing it I have been translating Krijgsraad as military court. Suddenly, krijgshof appears.

"Het krijgshof is dus milder in zijn oordeel dan de krijgsraad" Any suggestions for these terms please?
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 military tribunal
3 +2 military appellation court
2 military high court (‘krijgshof’)
References
refs
Krijgshof: krijgsraad voor officieren en...
Ref

Discussion

Kitty Brussaard Jul 18, 2016:
@Michael Indeed, and thanks again for sharing those links. Obviously, terminology may differ per country/jurisdiction. Military Court of Appeals seems to be used exclusively in Israel, as already pointed out by Katerina. Your version - Military Court of Appeal - seems to be in wider use, as are the other options suggested by Barend and Adrian in their comments to Etienne's answer. And, as far as I can see, 'Martial-Courts Appeal Court would be yet another way of putting it.
Michael Beijer Jul 18, 2016:
I suppose so see also my Discussion entry:

"C. Evidence in favour of "Military Court of Appeal":" above/below

which is basically the same thing as "Court of Military Appeals"
Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 17, 2016:
Anyway it is about 'appeal', as etienne muylle i Wallace surmised from the very beginning.

Now we have conclusive evidence, I suppose?
Kitty Brussaard Jul 17, 2016:
Cour militaire / Court of Military Appeals Following up on writeaway's clever suggestion, I came across the following info (taken from a publication about post-WW II prosecution of acts of collaboration) which I also posted in my reference comment but thought I might add here too:

The prosecution and punishment of crimes committed against the external security of the state was entrusted to the military judiciary, which consisted of courts martial (krijgsraden, conseils de guerre) and the Court of Military Appeals (Krijgshof; Cour militaire), which were part of the ordinary judiciary.
(...)
The courts martial and Court of Military Appeals were composed of a civilian magistrate and lay judges, who were officers or reserve officers. With a view to processing the acts of collaboration, the number of civilian magistrates was increased.
https://chs.revues.org/998
Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 17, 2016:
ha ha ...Kitty has actually never once broken a KudoZ rule

I did not say she did.
Just an ironical comment.
I am not one for policing.

:-)
writeaway Jul 17, 2016:
Fwiw, @ Asker Since this is Belgian and it dates from WWI, I suggest finding the French term. In WWI, the upper echelons of the Belgian military were French (something that has caused probs between French and Flemish since) and imo the Dutch is a translation of the French term. Since you also list that you know French, I suggest finding French references as well to check.
Michael Beijer Jul 17, 2016:
ha ha Barend, I might be wrong of course, but I suspect that Kitty has actually never once broken a KudoZ rule, at least not any of the ones relating to professional conduct and "being nice to each other". Sadly, I cannot say the same of myself, as I regularly break rules right and left, but hopefully only in self-defense. Admittedly, this isn't great either, and I am working on learning new ways to respond to people who act like mallooten to me or others. Responding in kind will of course only cause the problem to repeat itself endlessly.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 17, 2016:
Ja, en waarom zou ik verantwoording aan jou moeten afleggen?

Houd jij je nu aan je eigen principes, dan houd ik me aan die van mijzelf.
Ik sta volledig achter mijn opmerking richting writeaway.

Nogmaals dit is iets tussen writeaway en mij, het is jouw business niet.

Bovendien als je meent dat ik of iemand anders hier de regels heeft overtreden stap dan naar de bevoegde proz-com mensen en ga niet zelf voor moderator spelen.
Kitty Brussaard Jul 17, 2016:
Je mag mijn gedrag uiteraard in de gaten houden, en ik houd me aanbevolen voor opbouwende kritiek indien mijn gedrag daar aanleiding toe geeft, maar ik maak me sterk dat je me ooit zult betrappen (of hebt kunnen betrappen) op opmerkingen in de D-box waarin ik collega's vraag om 'verantwoording' af te leggen over hun redenen voor het verwijderen of wijzigen van peer comments (of antwoorden).
Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 17, 2016:
Bedankt voor deze les, juf. Ik zal in het vervolg je gedrag in de gaten houden en controleren op compliance to the Kudoz rules. :-)
Kitty Brussaard Jul 17, 2016:
Ik vind het persoonlijk storend en niet ten goede komen aan de sfeer in deze taalcombinatie. Daarnaast zijn dit soort discussiebijdragen ook in strijd met de regels, die mijns inziens niet voor niets zijn opgesteld. Zie 'site rules' 3.2 en 3.5: http://www.proz.com/?sp=siterules&mode=show&category=kudoz_a...
Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 17, 2016:
Ah, okay. Ik zou ten eerste zeggen dat writeway vrouws genoeg is om voor haarzelf op te komen, dat hoef jij niet te doen.

Ten tweede, writeaway had een agree gegeven aan BQuigley, die was plotseling verdwenen.
Wat mij betreft is er niets mis mee als je van mening verandert, maar haal je comment dan niet weg en verander die in een neutral met een verklaring erbij.

Ik vind het vreemd als een agree plotseling verdwenen is en daar reageerde ik op.
That's all.
Kitty Brussaard Jul 17, 2016:
@Barend Quoting:

writeaway

You removed your initial agree at BQuigley's answer.

Why is this?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

(...) In my opinion, you should have modified your comment agree --> neutral, so that anyone can see the true history of the arguments.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Refer also to site rules 3.2 and 3.5: http://www.proz.com/?sp=siterules&mode=show&category=kudoz_a...
Kitty Brussaard Jul 17, 2016:
Agree with Michael Regardless of the translation, it's indeed probably safest and wisest to add the original Flemish term somewhere in brackets.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 17, 2016:
I don't understand your comment.
What is it based on?
What do you mean exactly?
Kitty Brussaard Jul 17, 2016:
@Barend Let's try not to make this forum into some kind of tribunal by calling other colleagues to task so to speak for certain choices they've made, including choices they've made on second thoughts. Every now and then I also find myself in situations where I decide to change my earlier peer comment based on 'voortschrijdend inzicht'. I don't think there's much wrong with that and I would say no one is obliged to account for this to you or to anyone else for that matter.
Michael Beijer Jul 17, 2016:
@jethro: Whatever you end up choosing, I would definitely recommend adding the Dutch somewhere in brackets.
Michael Beijer Jul 16, 2016:
@jethro: So as context, you gave us a whopping:

"Belgian, First World War"

Could you maybe tell us what kind of document you are translating, and provide us with some more of your surrounding text, including things like chapter titles, tables, or anything else relevant. Might save us all a lot of time.
katerina turevich Jul 16, 2016:
OK, actually, I also don't like this word - Tribunal, for more reasons than Nuremberg alone.
What about Chief Military Court? straight from Imperial Russia :))

it is really a Military Appellate Court - I agree.
Maybe the solution is : Krijgsraad = Army Court; and Krijgshof = Military Appellate Court
Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 16, 2016:
@ Dear writeaway I will interrupt Michael's habit of answering questions, or attempts to/at answering questions, in the D-box for a while.

I did not see your explanation and I still don't see it. In my opinion, you should have modified your comment agree --> neutral, so that anyone can see the true history of the arguments.

As far as your second 'point' is concerned, I don't consider myself at all in charge here, especially I won't in the legal field.
Michael Beijer Jul 16, 2016:
C. Evidence in favour of "Military Court of Appeal":

In Google results, I found:

"en meer specifiek de hoogste instantie – het Krijgshof – deze nieuwe ...
of exception, and in particular its highest authority – the Military Court of appeal – has."
… but I can;t get at the text.

(https://goo.gl/mBGIUC )

*****************************
"Belgium, Military Court of Appeal at Liege. June 4, 1948"

(International Law Reports, By Elihu Lauterpacht @ https://goo.gl/97lRzm )

*****************************
"The Military Court of Appeal is in Brussels"

(Europa World Year, By Taylor & Francis Group @ https://goo.gl/gBKOs0)
Michael Beijer Jul 16, 2016:
some stuff I found A. Evidence in favour of "military high court":

Van Dale NL/EN:
Krijgshof, het (in België)= military high court

Van Dale online:
Krijgshof (het; o) (België)
1.hoogste militaire rechtbank

*****************************
B. Evidence in favour of "Military Tribunal":

"11.2 Belgium

• Brussels Military Tribunal (Krijgshof), Military Prosecutor CGKR v. Dirk N., 7 May 1998.
• Belgian Military Court of Appeal (Militair Gerechtshof), Prosecutor v. C.K and B.C., Judgment of 17 December 1997, reported in Journal desTribunaux 1998, 286-289."

(Accountability Of Peace Support Operations By M. C. Zwanenburg @ https://goo.gl/o36WX8 )
writeaway Jul 16, 2016:
@Barend I explained why I removed it to Mr Quigley. I don't understand your concern. You seem to be in charge here anyway.
Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 16, 2016:
My dear Katerina, I am not so sure I got it again.
I am sure I got it at another question. :-)
Unlike 'this other question', which remains between you and me as our most precious secret, this question isn't really my department, far from it.

However, you are absolutely right, my thoughts on this are simple, most likely too simple.
I will explain to you what I mean.

'tribunal' sounds like Nuremberg to me, so I have my doubts about that one.

I like the logic of the other answer which may be supported by the info in my reference comment and http://tinyurl.com/zelr5dh

But as I said, I am treading on dangerous ground here.
Michael Beijer Jul 16, 2016:
"copy/paste references" my ass. how else should we post them, in blood? with a fountain pen? not everyone can be a genius like Mrs Marple
katerina turevich Jul 16, 2016:
Doesn't Hof mean Central? then you would have a military appeal court/tribunal and a Central Tribunal

http://nationalarchives.gov.uk/conscription-appeals/

it shouldn't be complicated: Barend, hi, you got it again!:)
Barend van Zadelhoff Jul 16, 2016:
writeaway You removed your initial agree at BQuigley's answer.

Why is this?

FWIW:

http://tinyurl.com/zelr5dh
jethro (asker) Jul 16, 2016:
First World War
writeaway Jul 16, 2016:
What country is this from? What period? Now, decades ago? Please answer.
katerina turevich Jul 16, 2016:
military tribunal decides the fates of prisoners of war
military court of appeals is an Israeli institution
that leaves "military appellate court" as the only option
you do have to be careful of the exact context around these terms.
I'd say "hof" has more authority, or perhaps it's an euphemism, if there are too many 'Krijgsraad''s in the text.
jethro (asker) Jul 16, 2016:
Belgian
Michael Beijer Jul 16, 2016:
@jethro: is this NL or BE Dutch?

Proposed translations

+3
7 mins
Selected

military tribunal

This was the preferred term used in a translation I performed a year ago...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2016-07-17 12:44:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Krijgshof
http://www.vlaamswoordenboek.be/definities/term/Krijgshof
militair hoog gerechtshof

gerechtshof
Van Dale
court of justice


tribunal
ODE
2. A court of Justice.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Barend van Zadelhoff : The International Military Tribunal(1945-1946). During World War II//Krijgshof: krijgsraad voor officieren en hoger beroep na een veroordeling door de krijgsraad --> Vlaams woordenboek
39 mins
agree Adrian MM. (X) : for the US + UK. Begs the question whether Krijgsraad is, as per Cassell's NL/EN dictionary 1. a Council of War, like the warring discussion entrants or 2. a Court-Martial generally = metes out severer punishment than a tribunal would.
4 hrs
agree writeaway : I'll return my agree. Van Dale doesn't always get it right and it's the only reference around.
5 hrs
agree Tina Vonhof (X)
19 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+2
5 mins

military appellation court

One goes to a 'rechtbank' or 'raadkamer', and then for appeal to a HOF VAN BEROEP.
It is a pure logic suggestion.
Peer comment(s):
agree Barend van Zadelhoff : The correct terms seem to be: Military Court of Appeal (50.500 G-hits); Military Appellate Court (3.930 G-hits); Military Appeal Court (2.290 G-hits); Military Appeals Court (17.400 G-hits). As far as I can see, these terms are often used interchangeably
40 mins
neutral writeaway : The copy/paste references show it's military high court. Turns out it's Belgian.
1 hr
neutral Adrian MM. (X) : Military Appeal(s) Court, if anything
3 hrs
agree Kitty Brussaard : With your interpretation, even though the proposed term is not fully correct/idiomatic and should be tweaked as suggested by the two other colleagues above. Courts-martial appeal court might be another option.
1 day 2 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

military high court (‘krijgshof’)

In a pinch, this is what I would probably use. No time for more googling.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2016-07-16 22:25:19 GMT)
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Van Dale NL/EN:
Krijgshof, het (in België) = military high court

Van Dale online:
Krijgshof (het; o) (België) = 1. hoogste militaire rechtbank
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

21 mins
Reference:

refs

Van Dale NL/EN:
Krijgshof, het (in België)= military high court

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 mins (2016-07-16 19:18:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


Van Dale online:
Krijgshof (het; o) (België)
1.hoogste militaire rechtbank

(http://www.vandale.nl/opzoeken?pattern=Krijgshof&lang=nn#.V4... )

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 24 mins (2016-07-16 19:19:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Van Dale NL-NL online:

krijgsraad:
1. militaire rechtbank
2. vergadering om een plan te maken

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 45 mins (2016-07-16 19:40:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

hij werd nog tijdens de oorlog berecht door de krijgsraad en het krijgshof.
=
He was tried by court-martial and by the military high court during wartime.

(http://www.wt.be/index.php/wt/article/view/7039 )

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2016-07-16 22:16:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"C. Krijgshof

Chronologie:
• 1815‐1831 : Hoog krijgshof in Den Haag
• 1831‐1849 : Hoog krijgshof in Brussel
• 1849‐2003 : Krijgshof

(Archiefgids van het militair gerecht @ http://extranet.arch.be/pdf/P54/P5459_volledig.pdf )"
Something went wrong...
40 mins
Reference:

Krijgshof: krijgsraad voor officieren en hoger beroep na een veroordeling door de krijgsraad

http://www.vlaamswoordenboek.be/definities/toon/3634



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 49 mins (2016-07-16 19:45:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Military tribunals are distinct from courts-martial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_tribunals_in_the_Unit...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2016-07-16 20:08:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court-martial

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2016-07-16 20:37:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Finland

In addition, they may handle criminal cases against civilians in areas where ordinary courts have ceased operation, if the matter is urgent. Such courts-martial have a learned judge as a president and two military members: an officer and an NCO, warrant officer or a private soldier. The verdicts of a war-time court-martial can be appealed to a court of appeals.

Luxembourg

In Luxembourg, there are three levels of military jurisdiction:
- The lowest is the Council of War which is composed of one Lieutenant-Colonel (or higher), one Captain (or higher) and one civilian judge of a District Court.
- The Military Court of Appeal is composed of two high magistrates of an civilian Court of Appeal and one Major (or higher).
- At the top is the Military High Court which deals not only with military cases, but also with acts of high treason, sabotage, organized forms of terrorism and crimes against humanity. It is composed of two magistrates of a civilian Court of Appeal, one judge of a civilian District Court and one Lieutenant-Colonel (or higher) of the Army.[6]

Belgium not discussed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court-martial


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2016-07-17 00:43:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I would like to mention in response to Adrian MM:

for the US + UK. Begs the question whether Krijgsraad is, as per Cassell's NL/EN dictionary 1. a Council of War, like the warring discussion entrants or 2. a Court-Martial generally = metes out severer punishment than a tribunal would.

Wiki offers:

United Kingdom:

The Court Martial is one of the Military Courts of the United Kingdom.
The Armed Forces Act 2006 establishes the Court Martial as a permanent standing court. Previously courts-martial were convened on an ad hoc basis. The Court Martial may try any offence against service law.[8] The Court is made up of a Judge Advocate, and between three and seven (depending on the seriousness of the offence) officers and warrant officers.[9] Rulings on matters of law are made by the Judge Advocate alone, whilst decisions on the facts are made by a majority of the members of the court, not including the Judge Advocate, and decisions on sentence by a majority of the court, this time including the Judge Advocate.[10]

United States:

United States:

Main article: Courts-martial in the United States

Most commonly, courts-martial in the United States are convened to try members of the U.S. military for violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), which is the U.S. military's criminal code. However, they can also be convened for other purposes, including military tribunals and the enforcement of martial law in an occupied territory. Courts-martial are governed by the rules of procedure and evidence laid out in the Manual for Courts-Martial, which contains the Rules for Courts-Martial, Military Rules of Evidence, and other guidance. There are three types: Special, Summary, and General.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court-martial
Something went wrong...
21 hrs
Reference:

Ref

From:
Burgerspionnen in dienst van de vijand vanuit het oogpunt van de Belgische militaire justitie
De andere zijde van een schaduwoorlog (1914-1920)

In de onmiddellijke naoorlogse periode sprak het militair gerecht gedurende verschillende maanden recht over spionagezaken en verklikkingen door Belgische burgers aan de vijand. Op basis van de rijke dossiers van het Militair Gerechtshof bewaard in het Algemeen Rijksarchief wil dit artikel een beeld schetsen van de wereld van de Belgische spionnen in dienst van de vijand. Wat was hun modus operandi ? Wie waren ze? Vormden ze een homogene groep ? Beantwoordden ze aan een met hen geassocieerd stereotiep beeld (een vage band met betrekking tot nationaliteit, voortvluchtigen…)? De studie onderzoekt de voornaamste kenmerken van de groep van 62 aangeklaagden en gebruikt enkele case studies van de levensloop van een spion. Het laatste deel van het artikel schetst het standpunt van de militaire rechtbanken. Het verklaart hoe deze uitzonderingsrechtspraak, en meer specifiek de hoogste instantie – het Krijgshof – deze nieuwe activiteiten strafte in een nog onduidelijke juridische context en onder druk van de publieke opinie.

The Civilian Spies Working for the Enemy Through the Prism of the Belgian Military Justice. The Hidden Side of the War of Shadows 1914-1920)

In the immediate post-war period, the military courts held for several months the authority to judge cases of espionage and denunciation to the enemy by civilians. Using these rich sources at the State Archives, the article proposes to rediscover the universe of Belgian spies working for the enemy. What was their modus operandi ? Who were they? Were they a homogeneous group? Did they correspond to stereotypes (blurred identity in terms of nationality, fugitives from justice…) associated with them? The article analyses the main characteristics of the group of 62 postwar defendants, illustrated by a few case studies and trajectories of spies. The last part of the contribution uses the perspective of the military judges. It explains how this justice of exception, and in particular its highest authority – the Military Court of appeal – has sanctioned this novel behaviour in a still relatively blurred judicial context and under the pressure of public opinion.
http://www.journalbelgianhistory.be/nl/system/files/article_...

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Note added at 22 hrs (2016-07-17 17:33:45 GMT)
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In België zijn de militaire rechtscolleges afgeschaft in vredestijd door artikel 157, al. 1, van de Grondwet. In oorlogstijd bestaat de krijgsraad uit een Nederlandstalige, een Franstalige en een Duitstalige kamer. Een kamer bestaat dan uit een rechter (voorzitter), een magistraat uit de rechtbank van eerste aanleg (burgerlijk lid), een hoofdofficier en een lagere officier die minimaal de graad van kapitein bezit (militaire leden). Het openbaar ministerie wordt vertegenwoordigd door de krijgsauditeur. Op de terechtzitting is dan ook een griffier aanwezig. De samenstelling kan gewijzigd worden naar gelang de rang van de terechtstaande militair(en). Hogere officieren verschijnen niet voor de krijgsraad maar voor het Militair Gerechtshof. De officieren die in de krijgsraad of het Militair Gerechtshof zetelen, genieten de waardigheid van magistraat en zijn dan door het beroepsgeheim gebonden. Tegen de vonnissen van de krijgsraad kan hoger beroep ingesteld worden bij het Militair Gerechtshof.

De militairen verschijnen in vredestijd voor gewone burgerrechtbanken.

De samenstelling en de inrichting van de militaire rechtscolleges in oorlogstijd wordt in België thans geregeld door de wet van 10 april 2003 tot regeling van de afschaffing van de militaire rechtscolleges in vredestijd alsmede van het behoud ervan in oorlogstijd.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militaire_rechtbank

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Note added at 1 day29 mins (2016-07-17 19:25:09 GMT)
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Afdeling 7. Militaire rechtscolleges

668. Voorheen bestonden de militaire rechtscolleges uit de krijgsraden in eerste aanleg en het Krijgshof te Brussel in hoger beroep. Deze rechtscolleges bestaan uit militairen, bijgestaan door magistraten.
Bij de grondwetswijziging van 17 december 2002 werd lid 1 van art. 157 G.W. gewijzigd en bepaalt thans: 'er zijn militaire gerechten, wanneer de staat van oorlog ... is vastgesteld'.
Dit impliceert dat in vredestijd de militaire gerechten werden afgeschaft.
Deze bepaling van de Grondwet is in werking getreden op 1 januari 2004.
http://users.ugent.be/~rdecorte/documenten/doctrine/[4]gerecht.pdf

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day2 hrs (2016-07-17 21:16:27 GMT)
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And from a publication about the so-called 'repressie' (i.e. prosecution of acts of collaboration) after the Second World War:

The prosecution and punishment of crimes committed against the external security of the state was entrusted to the military judiciary, which consisted of courts martial (krijgsraden, conseils de guerre) and the Court of Military Appeals (Krijgshof; Cour militaire), which were part of the ordinary judiciary.
(...)
The courts martial and Court of Military Appeals were composed of a civilian magistrate and lay judges, who were officers or reserve officers. With a view to processing the acts of collaboration, the number of civilian magistrates was increased.
https://chs.revues.org/998
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Barend van Zadelhoff : Also see my reference comments and http://tinyurl.com/zelr5dh (in D-box)
13 mins
Dank.
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