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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

réponse de jésuite

English translation:

Jesuitical response

Added to glossary by Stephen McCann
May 20, 2020 10:40
3 yrs ago
62 viewers *
French term

réponse de jésuite

French to English Other Idioms / Maxims / Sayings
"Sans vouloir donner une **réponse de jésuite**, je me dois de procéder à un détour préliminaire afin d’expliquer le profil de ces investisseurs"

I'm not sure what this idiom means. I can't decide whether it is something along the lines of "dodge the issue" or "give a roundabout answer". Maybe "without trying to be smart"

The only definitions I have found online seem to indicate that it implies insincerity or hypocrisy, but that doesn't seem to be the case here
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 Jesuitical response
4 +3 a prevaricating response
4 +1 Disingenuous
4 +1 While I wouldn't want to give an overtly complicated answer
5 Jesuit answer
4 equivocating response
4 -1 without equivocation
4 -1 without being deliberately obtuse
4 -1 But before I even endeavour to answer that question
2 -2 go off the subject
References
La casuistique
Change log

May 20, 2020 23:45: Daryo changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): philgoddard, Beatriz Ramírez de Haro, Daryo

When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.

How to tell the difference between "easy" and "pro" questions:

An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an easy question is one that any native speaker of the language would be able to answer correctly.)

A pro question is anything else... in other words, any question that requires knowledge or skills that are specialized (even slightly).

Another way to think of the difficulty levels is this: an easy question is one that deals with everyday conversation. A pro question is anything else.

When deciding between easy and pro, err on the side of pro. Most questions will be pro.

* Note: non-member askers are not given the option of entering 'pro' questions; the only way for their questions to be classified as 'pro' is for a ProZ.com member or members to re-classify it.

Discussion

katsy May 23, 2020:
https://cnrtl.fr/definition/academie9/jésuite . et péj. Par allusion à la casuistique des moralistes jésuites, et notamment à la pratique de la restriction mentale, se dit d'une personne qui montre une subtilité un peu retorse, qui manque de franchise et de sincérité. C'est un jésuite. Faire une réponse de jésuite. Adjt. Un air jésuite. Des manières jésuites.
Maybe pne should have started here
SafeTex May 23, 2020:
@ Polyglote and all "Abstruse" would have indeed been a super suggestion and a synonym is "obscure" which makes me think of religion (obscurantism) which some people might have liked as it at least keeps the religious connotation of the original expression in French
But that's l'esprit d'escalier for you.
polyglot45 May 23, 2020:
The word I really meant was ABSTRUSE I think confinement is rotting my brain !
Asker has made his choice but it sounds REALLY funny in English and not immediately understandable to English-speaking readers - strange choice
Stephen McCann (asker) May 21, 2020:
Thanks everyone for all the great input! In the end I'm using the more literal "Jesuitical response", which despite my previously stated concerns is still the correct translation for the term, and while it might not be the most common expression in English, it definitely does exist and it conveys the same connotations as the original. Furthermore, I don't think I want to "dumb down" the text by paraphrasing or explaining the concept (although I liked some of the suggestions, especially Daryo's).
SafeTex May 20, 2020:
@ Yvonne Hello Yvonne

I disagreed with you and you asked me "so just because you don't know it you disagree???"
The answer is NO.

I disagreed with it because hardly ANYONE knows it.

It's really not personal and most of us get a bit hot under the collar at times (me included) but another person disagreed for similar reasons and all the neutrals bring up this point too.

if we had some historical term that had no present day counterpart, we would have to live with the historical term but it's not the case here so the disagrees/neutrals are valid viewpoints.

Regards

21 May. I changed the disagree to a neutral as Writeaway made me realize that a disagree is very harsh in this case.
SafeTex May 20, 2020:
@ all Hello
Isn't this really "botter en touché" or "noyer le poisson" ou "langue de bois" more or less.
Looking up these expressions, I see things like "prevaricate" (already suggested), "waffle", dodge the question (suggested in discussion) etc;

is this perhaps a way to proceed to find a suitable translation for the question?

yes, we need a good reason to reject a literal translation for an expression that exists in both languages but I think we have one. The expression in English is not widely used, is archaic and most people (including me), have no idea at all as to what it means (hence my disagree)
Just my opinion on this.

PS why is the question "non-pro"?
Libby Cohen May 20, 2020:
Yvonne, I just feel that the literal "Jesuitical" loses its meaning in a global English context, even for an educated audience. Culture and context of the TARGET audience are important. Otherwise, imagine the translation "The mechanic charged me a Christ host of a tabernacle for my wheel alignment" in a text from Quebec.
ph-b (X) May 20, 2020:
Just seen katsy's note Yes, that too. Not quite the same meaning as Y's "ambiguous" (encore que...) but then, we don't really know what the author meant.
ph-b (X) May 20, 2020:
Yvonne, "Who said anything about it being "popular" (other than ph-b)?" I wouldn't, nor did I, describe it as "popular". I said the register was not as high as the answers given then. Far more people (in France, anyway) would understand it - not necessarily use it - than people in the UK would understand "jesuitical"/"equivocation"/"prevarication". The translation must take that into account, and as I said earlier, I agree with your "ambiguous", which I think is about the right level.
katsy May 20, 2020:
a bit late in the day, maybe, but I would agree with ph-b at 14.14; I do have the impression that the French expression is used relatively often. He mentions moving the register up from "dodging the issue" .... I'd suggest in that case: "evading the issue".
ph-b (X) May 20, 2020:
Yvonne, There's nothing dismissive about saying that ghits are of no help to me when I translate. They're simply not reliable, as far as I am concerned. To start with, their number is only meaningful if you can check each and every source. I haven't got enough time for that. As for "ambiguous", yes, that's definitely something that I would consider if I were doing this translation.
Yvonne Gallagher May 20, 2020:
@ph-b I look at Ghits sometimes just to see how commonly used a term is and they are very useful for that purpose. Also helps to see the context and register of a term in usage. It seems clear to me that this is not as widely used as you think. So no need to be so dismissive.
Yvonne Gallagher May 20, 2020:
AMBIGUOUS RESPONSE might work https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ambiguous
or indeed "enigmatic"
"cryptic" to keep the Jesuitical idea
ph-b (X) May 20, 2020:
"Qu'est-ce qu'une réponse de jésuite" ? Halfway down the page: https://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2013/03/14/qui-sont-le... I agree with Stephen that the author may not be using this expression as s-he should, esp. since it tends to be pejorative. S-he wouldn't say that about her/himself. "Dodging the issue" is probably the right meaning, but the translation would have to be a bit more upmarket.
ph-b (X) May 20, 2020:
Yvonne, Thank you for checking the number of ghits for me. I've never found that the number of ghits, be it high or low, was at all reliable when translating. My instinct and knowledge as a linguist, the native speakers around me, relevant texts and paper or online dictionaries are all I need, really.
Yvonne Gallagher May 20, 2020:
@ph-b only 4, 410 Ghit results (and some of those repeats) for the French. Not exactly common at all it seems!
ph-b (X) May 20, 2020:
It is safe to assume that, whatever the author may have meant, his-her way of talking is not pretentious.
Stephen McCann (asker) May 20, 2020:
Thanks for all the great answers!

I don't know if the author of the source text is using the expression correctly, but I suspect not as is so often the case. Basically he says that the wrong question is being asked and then explains why, before answering the question anyway a few lines further down. This is why I had thought of "dodging the issue" or something along those lines.

@ph-b's comment just appeared as I was typing this, and I was just going to ask precisely whether anybody had any suggestions about how pretentious the expression sounds in French compared to the direct equivalent in English. So thanks!
ph-b (X) May 20, 2020:
The register of "réponse de jésuite" is not necessarily very high in French. You will often hear it, given the right context, and probably more, I daresay, than"jesuitical"/"equivocation"/"prevarication" in English. It's plainer than that. "I don't wish to sound as if I'm dodging the issue, but I must..."? PS: Perhaps a higher register than "dodge the issue", but to me, less than the other Eglish answers given so so far.
Yvonne Gallagher May 20, 2020:
@ Asker Yes to "give a roundabout answer" in the same manner as a politician can answer a question without really giving an answer at all. You're no wiser in other words! But the register seems to be higher than this. If you don't want "Jesuitical" you can use "dissembling" or "equivocating" as given in my definition.

Proposed translations

+3
7 mins
Selected

Jesuitical response



Unclear in other words

https://www.lexico.com/definition/jesuitical

"Dissembling or equivocating, in the manner once associated with Jesuits."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2020-05-21 11:52:27 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Stephen, glad to have helped and totally agree with you that the text should not be "dumbed down" or that the term should be ignored or paraphrased. The adjective "Jesuitical" is still used in English whatever some people seem to think though it seems it may be higher register than in French. But I believe modern usage of the adjective means highly intellectualised, as the Jesuits are the most highly educated in the Catholic priesthood and are sometimes feared by the less intelligent as they can talk rings around them. Just as some politicians do in fact.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/12/17/tubular
Giuliani, it turned out, needed less help than Romney, who had a more jesuitical response, which didn’t precisely answer the very precise question.
Peer comment(s):
agree AllegroTrans : That's the translation but it may not be readily understood in some countries
19 mins
well the same could be said of the French! Is that going to be understood by all French speakers? I expect it's intended for an educated audience. The definition gives other alternatives anyway. But "unclear" in plain English, a typical political response
neutral Daryo : correct, only problem being that only a minority in English speaking countries will have any clue as to what it could mean.
52 mins
well the same could be said of the French! Is that going to be understood by all French speakers? I expect it's intended for an educated audience. The definition gives other alternatives anyway. But "unclear" in plain English, a typical political response
agree philgoddard : You've provided the correct translation and explanation. The choice of term is slightly pretentious, and Stephen will have to decide whether to substitute something else in his translation.
1 hr
Many thanks:-)
disagree Libby Cohen : I think we need to be bold enough not to translate this literally, when it is so rooted in French Jesuit 17th century usage, and not a popular English phrase today. I would prefer making it intelligible to the 21st century educated audience.
3 hrs
What is your linguistic reason for disagreeing when this is a correct translation for the term asked? Who said anything about it being "popular" (other than ph-b) "I would prefer making it intelligible to..." is good writing???
agree ph-b (X) : not with this answer (to me, wrong register + cult. ref. might be too cryptic for more Engl. speakers than Fr. ones), but agree with your "ambiguous" in the discussion box.
3 hrs
Thank you . Yes ambiguous or even non-commital would also work. I really don't get the disagrees at all
neutral SafeTex : we would need a very good reason to refuse a literal translation when the expression exists in both languages and yet, bearing in mind that most English people don't use or even recognize this expression, incl. me, I would reject it.
4 hrs
just because you don't know something is not a linguistic reason for disagreeing when this is a correct translation. Thanks for changing to neutral. BTW This was non Pro for me as I knew it immediately w/o needing to look anything up
agree writeaway : I agree there are other ways to translate this but I don't agree with the disagrees. It's certainly not wrong.
4 hrs
Many thanks:-) No, it's not wrong and anyway I offered other ways of dealing with it.
neutral Michael Delrieu : 'jesuitical response' yields no results in ngram viewer, so particulary obscure. Oxford dict does, but with a meaning of 'dissemble': conceal or disguise one's true feelings or beliefs, which is not the same thing as the french.
4 hrs
Just look up the word jesuitical and you'll get more result. It has exactly the same meaning as the French in English
disagree James A. Walsh : This would be meaningless to me without looking it up, which quite defeats the purpose!
11 hrs
What is your linguistic reason for disagreeing when this is a correct translation for the term asked? It's not wrong and I offered alternative ways of dealing with it.
agree Francois Boye : They say 'réponse de jésuite' in French
15 hrs
Thanks:-) And yes, they did
neutral ormiston : I doubt the adjective Jésuitique would be readily understood even in France. A typical Jesuit reply would be to cleverly answer a question with a question for example. So your non commital works better. The French is not pretentious language.
20 hrs
contradictory no? "I doubt the adjective Jésuitique would be readily understood even in France[...] The French is not pretentious language" But agree "typical Jesuit reply would be to cleverly answer a question with a question"
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Yvonne!"
+3
45 mins

a prevaricating response

Or indeed "without wishing to prevaricate" . I have no objection whatsoever to Yvonne's answer, but I take the point that some readers may not understand immediately the "Jesuitical". However, I have chosen a rather old-fashioned/little used word myself, and maybe it will receive a similar reaction.
(memories of Richardson's "Pamela", described repeatedly by Mr B as a "prevaricator"...)
Peer comment(s):
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : not so sure. Not an exact synonym as this includes notions of delay and deliberate lying
41 mins
Thanks for your comment, Yvonne. I would have said that casuistry (one of the most frequent terms associated with "Jesuitical") includes at least the "deliberate lying". But, sincerely, no matter!
agree Libby Cohen : No need to translate this term literally. The Jesuitical method, or high casuistry, is about prevaricating or equivocating.
2 hrs
Thank you Libby :-)
agree ph-b (X) : not with this answer (to me, wrong register + cult. ref. might be too cryptic for more Engl. speakers than Fr. ones), but agree with your "evade the issue" in the discussion box.
3 hrs
Understand your viewpoint. It is actually difficult to 'guess' how comprehensible cultural references are. Thanks ph-b :-)
agree SafeTex : right register and an expression that more people are likely to understand than "Jesuitical response"
19 hrs
Thanks SafeTex :-)
Something went wrong...
-1
51 mins

without equivocation

Sans vouloir donner une réponse de jésuite, je......
Without equivocation, I.....

Yvonne's answer is perfectly correct, but I offer this alternative. Reference to the Jesuits may be understood in countries with a moderate to large Catholic population, but if the translation is for international consumption it may be better to use something more comprehensible.

?
Peer comment(s):
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : you're translating "Sans vouloir donner une **réponse de jésuite", not the term asked itself
15 mins
Yes you're right: Maybe 'without wishing to equivocate' I....': My intention was a suggested rephrasing to make this sound natural
disagree Katarina Peters : the meaning is just the opposite
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
-2
3 hrs

go off the subject

Low confidence level for lack of context.

I'm not sure réponse de jésuite is itself a fixed idiom, the problem seems to lie instead with jésuite and the pejorative senses it can have. Uppermost are hypocrisy and deliberate ambiguity, but as suggested in the discussion box, the speaker/writer may have other connotations in mind.

Seeing as the speaker says "I don't mean to [...] but I will anyway", I think what they mean here is straying off topic, going off on a tangent, going into the weeds, getting sidetracked and so on. Nothing misleading or evasive, just being longwinded and not getting to the point.

For a lesson in the dark arts of Jesuit circumlocution, look no further than the masterful Sir Humphrey. Poor old Hacker! :D
Example sentence:

I don't mean to go off the subject, but I must digress for a moment and sketch out the profile of these investors.

Not to go off on a tangent, but a short digression is in order to explain these investors' profile.

Peer comment(s):
disagree Daryo : that's off-off the idea / meaning of "une réponse de jésuite" // Sir Humphrey as master practitioner of jesuistic rhetoric? Not convinced. More a master at protecting own tribal interests - as in "house-training ministers ..."
10 hrs
In this context the writer means longwinded (or, as in your answer, complicated), not casuistic, deceptive or evasive. And Sir Humphrey is the epitome of deceptive and evasive!
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : You can't just ignore a term and skip over it. It does not mean "go off the subject" at all.This relates only to the digression that follows and the nuances/meaning of the ST is changed
19 hrs
You have to consider the expression in context, where it clearly does not mean anything along the lines of Jesuitical.
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

equivocating response

Peer comment(s):
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : well yes, I had this as an alternative at 7 mins but apparently register is not so high in French
18 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
4 hrs

Disingenuous

The definition of 'reponse de jésuite' (Cnrtlwww.cnrtl.fr › definition › academie9 › jésuite), includes the following key words: montre une subtilité un peu retorse, qui manque de franchise et de sincérité.
English key words subtly dishonest and insincere lead to Collins entry for Disingenuous
Reference:

https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/academie9/j%C3%A9suite

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-thesaurus/disingenuous

Peer comment(s):
agree Yolanda Broad
2 hrs
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : no, it doesn't necessarily mean dishonest or insincere
2 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
7 hrs

without being deliberately obtuse

I would say

Jesuit's reponse is something I have never heard an English speaker use whereas the French is in everyday use
Peer comment(s):
neutral ph-b (X) : I thought "obtuse" meant " stupid and slow to understand, or unwilling to try to understand" (Camb.)? If so, I don't think that's what is meant here./Oh dear! :-)
12 hrs
true - I now think I've always misused the phrase !
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : "Obtuse" is completely wrong. "Jesuitical" means the opposite: a highly-intellectualised response. I've come across it quite a lot, in both languages, especially in literature, academic critical works and politics. //Asker said they don't
14 hrs
sure but they obfuscate deliberately which is the whole point here
neutral Daryo : if you look at the ST - which is definitely more relevant here (always, in fact) than any dictionary or glossary or third-hand comments, you'll see for yourself which nuance of meaning is intended IN THIS ST
19 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
11 hrs
French term (edited): Sans vouloir donner une réponse de jésuite

But before I even endeavour to answer that question

Paraphrase it, I say!

I’ve read the whole article having found it online, and if I was translating it I would paraphrase this part of the sentence to achieve greater clarity in the English.
https://www.businessimmo.com/contents/104458/le-palace-retou...

None of the literal translations work for me, and the "dodge the issue", “ambiguous”, “evasive” or similar renderings don’t really cut it for me either in terms of producing a clearly comprehensible translation.

This would be my take on it:

“A chaque ouverture d’un nouvel établissement hôtelier prestigieux je suis interrogé sur le rendement réalisé par les investisseurs dans l’hôtellerie recherchant la distinction Palace à Paris. Sans vouloir donner une réponse de jésuite, je me dois de procéder à un détour préliminaire afin d’expliquer le profil de ces investisseurs […]”

“Each and every time a prestigious new “Palace“ hotel opens up in Paris, I am asked about the returns investors can expect from hotels with this coveted status in the city. But before I even endeavour to answer that question, I discuss the investor’s profile with the investor, […]”
_________________

Best of luck!
Reference:

https://www.businessimmo.com/contents/104458/le-palace-retour-sur-investissement-ou-retour-sur-ego

Peer comment(s):
agree Wolf Draeger : Or sidestep it altogether with "But first" or "Before we get to that"? As in "But first, we need more context"...!
1 hr
disagree Daryo : that misses ENTIRELY the point / underlying meaning of what's "une réponse de jésuite" - could as well not be at all in the ST, as far as this translation is concerned. Unfortunately, the term is a key term in that sentence, you can't just ignore it.
2 hrs
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : You can't just ignore a term and skip over it. This paraphrase does not have the same meaning as the ST
11 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
14 hrs
French term (edited): Sans vouloir donner une réponse de jésuite

While I wouldn't want to give an overtly complicated answer

Sans vouloir donner une réponse de jésuite
=
While I wouldn't want to give an overtly complicated answer, I do need to start with a digression ...


In this texte:

Les Châteaux des temps modernes

A chaque ouverture d’un nouvel établissement hôtelier prestigieux je suis interrogé sur le rendement réalisé par les investisseurs dans l’hôtellerie recherchant la distinction Palace à Paris. Sans vouloir donner une réponse de jésuite, je me dois de procéder à un détour préliminaire afin d’expliquer le profil de ces investisseurs (fortunes privées majoritairement d’Asie et du Moyen Orient) et présenter leurs motivations (diversification patrimoniale, création de valeur à long terme, prestige). Ainsi, la question du retour sur investissement immédiat d’un hôtel Palace se trouve ne pas être « la bonne question ». En effet, pour une majorité des propriétaires, ces Châteaux des temps modernes sont la preuve visible et indiscutable de leur succès (retour sur EGO assuré !). Pour certains, il s’agit aussi d’une stratégie de préservation du capital à un horizon lointain dépassant 25 ans (durée moyenne de détention des actifs historiques). Enfin, certains investisseurs ont su combiner préservation de leur patrimoine et création de valeur (Prince Al Waleed Bin Talal), tandis que d’autres ont trouvé dans les Palaces une vitrine complémentaire pour leurs activités dans le secteur du luxe (LVMH). Ainsi, la question du retour sur investissement se doit de tenir compte de la diversité des motivations et des flux de richesse directs et indirects générés par un investissement Palace.

https://www.businessimmo.com/contents/104458/le-palace-retou...

In this text "une réponse de jésuite" is about giving complicated answers, not about evading questions or attempts at obfuscation - can't see any kind of negative connotations implied.

The author could have as well said;

"sans vouloir me lancer dans un exercice de casuistique"

(before getting into one ...)


Peer comment(s):
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : yes, we broadly agree on the general meaning of the term asked and the fact that there are no negative connotations implied here but this doesn't do it for me
8 hrs
OK.
agree Wolf Draeger : Or "Not to complicate/Without complicating things". This is a good answer, but it contradicts your ref entry and disagrees. Be consistent.
11 hrs
I'm consistent "réponse de jésuite" has many factual aspects and interpretations and conditioned emotional reactions attached to it - "overtly complicated" is just the one that is relevant here in some other ST it could be about some other aspect.
Something went wrong...
6 days

Jesuit answer

I don't think the word needs to be 'Jesuitical', this word implies the manner of a Jesuit, an adjective.
I think the word Jesuit better implies intrigue and mystery, leaving the question potentially unanswered.
The word in French is a noun; therefore, the word in English needs to be a noun: Jesuit. Using the word Jesuit does not dumb down the phrase, I believe it makes it more accurate.
Reference:

www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › Jesuit

http://www.alphadictionary.com/goodword/word/jesuitical

Something went wrong...

Reference comments

13 hrs
Reference:

La casuistique

casuistique (nom féminin)

(de casuiste)

Partie de la théologie qui traite des cas de conscience. (Née véritablement au xiie s., la casuistique catholique connut son âge d'or entre le xvie et le xviiie s., surtout dans la Compagnie de Jésus. Les casuistes furent combattus par les jansénistes, qui les accusaient de favoriser une morale relâchée.)
.
https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/casuistique/1...


Qu'est ce qu'une "réponse de jésuite" ?
Les jésuites sont très connus en France pour leur querelle avec les jansénistes, autour de la casuistique (la partie de la théologie morale qui s'intéresse aux cas de conscience) au XVIIe siècle. Une partie des membres de la Compagnie de Jésus soutenait un enseignement moral, basé sur l'expérience de cas particuliers (d'où le terme casuistique) accordant une place importante à la liberté individuelle face à la loi morale. Une posture dénoncée par les jansénistes (comme Blaise Pascal), qui la qualifient de "laxisme".

Depuis cette controverse intellectuelle, le mot jésuite a pris une connotation péjorative, synonyme d'hypocrite. Les membres de la compagnie de Jésus étaient brocardés pour leur capacité à donner des réponses retorses pour étayer leurs argumentations.

https://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2013/03/14/qui-sont-le...

You could argue that members of the Roman catholic order of "la Compagnie de Jésus" got bad press from those who couldn't (or don't want to) comprehend anything more that a simplistic yes or no.

[A bit like Machiavelli who keeps getting bed press from people who never read a line of his writing ...]

I see the meaning of "réponse de jésuite" as a nuanced / complex argumentation that can not be reduced to a simple yes/no valid for all and any situations. Not to everyone's taste, thus the negative connotation ...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 8 hrs (2020-05-21 19:36:34 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

... who keeps getting bad press from ...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Yvonne Gallagher : I agree with your last line in particular. People, who can't follow intellectual reasoning put a negative spin on anything to do with Jesuits but the word isn't necessarily negative https://www.americamagazine.org/content/all-things/jesuitica...
9 hrs
Thanks!
Something went wrong...
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