FPC Aug 20, 2022:

Latest info Docteur Peinture is the Youtube channel about painting by a house painter turned blogger. I asked him and he replied : "salut, la fleur c'est l'opposé de la racine du poils, quand on dit ***montée sur fleur c'est une technique d'assemblage, ce sont des petits paquets de poils qui sont assemblés ensemble avant d'être collés dans les viroles***, regarde la vidéo sur la visite d'une usine, j'en ai fais deux". I put the asterisks for emphasis. Following is the link to the videoclip he's referring to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j2j58nISG0&t=44s

So maybe the explanation is less arcane than imagined? It seems to me this is merely the method we instinctively think of as paintbrush making, as seen also in many other videos about artist paintbrushes. A tuft of bristles is formed and held together (often with fine cotton string) and then inserted into the ferrule. In the video above you see it done by machine, whereas in other workshops you see it done manually (see below) .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q372OY8hbYw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5QkQAxTecE

What do you make of it?

Brian Cleveland (asker) Aug 17, 2022:

Thinking about it, you're probably right FPC. I don't see much sense in putting the nice split ends inside the ferrule. That effectively becomes an "unflagged" brush. (It would be nice to know what an "unflagged" brush is in French just for comparison sake.)
However, in the first reference given by Emmanuella, the definitions section contains:
"Sur racine : pinceau monté sur racine." That suggests there is a reason for the opposite mounting of the bristles.
But there is no mention of "sur fleur" although there is a description of what we assume is that.

I still feel unclear and I hate that sensation!

FPC Aug 15, 2022:

@Brian First of all thank-you for your reply to all comments.

As for what the expression SEEMS to suggest I doubt it's the correct meaning. That would mean an upside down monted tuft, if I understand well your idea. I had raised this question with someone I phoned at an art supplies stores, but they didn't think it could be the case. If all we know about paintbrushes and hairs and bristles makes sense, then upending the bristles to make the brush wouldn't in my opinion. I understand, though, that literally that's what it seems to say. Idk.

My personal and humble opinion is that the key to a reasonable translation for this phrase may lie in a combination of my and Mpoma's suggestions. However I'm left with doubt.

Brian Cleveland (asker) Aug 15, 2022:

Thank you all for your diligent investigations, I am truly surprised at the length to which you have gone to try and unravel this. My apologies for not reporting back sooner, but I have been reading each suggestion as they have arrived but without having had anything useful to add.

I have now gone back to look again, and given the suggestions made, I have been looking at the various brushes that are described as "montée sur fleur" and also others that are described as "fleuré" and it would seem from the photos that they LOOK different on the ends. Could it be that what it describes is actually which direction the bristles are placed? "Fleuré" perhaps the tips are exposed and do the painting, "montée sur fleur" the tips are inside the ferrule?

Would that make sense?

Thanks again to all.

FPC Aug 13, 2022:

Maybe this Straight off the manager of a Géant des Art shop. According to the lady,"monté/e sur fleur" means the brush comes with a factory (albeit, hand-made) "ligature". This is the tying of bristles above the ferrule by wrapping string (or she said also wire) around the head from the heel up, to hold the tuft tightly together.
It's apparently a trick of the trade to prevent the head of the paintbrush from splaying open and loose its shape. It's supposed to be repeated as needed for brush maintenance, but it can be also provided initially by the paintbrush manufacturer. It's apparently a mark of quality manufacturing and better grade brushes. If it's hand-made it's a sign of craftsmanship, but someone else told me that on large production runs it's probably done by a machine.
It's usually done for stiff bristle paintbrushes (so not sable or other soft hair) and obviously only on round brushes. In English it's call "to tie a brush", so I guess such a paintbrush could be said "factory tied". Here's a video that explains it how it's done by hand.

Honestly, I don't know for sure. Take everything with a big pinch of salt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd1tX_uAx50

FPC Aug 12, 2022:

Mpoma I agree, and of course I may be wrong but that could be the gist

Mpoma Aug 12, 2022:

Whoa! Troppo di estrapolazione!

Perché l'espressione francese, lei, non descrive affatto la funzione, soltanto la forma, e infatti solo in modo indiretto ...

FPC Aug 11, 2022:

My tentative suggestion I don't know what the asker and other fellow translators think, but I would suggest a slightly different take on this term. In the end what really matters for the end user, whether an artist or decorator or just house painter, is the use they do of their tools and how they perform. My (strong) impression is that all that really matters and is vaunted by this expression is how the brush head eventually does its job, and in particular how it picks up and releases the paint. In this respect I've found two expressions for this property, one is "pick-up and release" and the other is "colour/paint carrying capacity". It may turn out they're what it takes to have an English-speaking carftsman or artist understand why they should get that particular brush. So basically my idea (to describe this paintbrush) is go for function rather than form. I'm going to post these as my suggestions.

Mpoma Aug 11, 2022:

@FPC Well done for actually phoning some shops! As I suggested, it might be an idea to try a couple of serious art shops, rather than DIY stores (which are also, for that matter, in my experience usually staffed by teenagers).

Well I've learnt something here: the term fleur seems, as you say, to refer to tapered hairs. Or at least that's one of its meanings.

Yes, I don't think this terminology is to be found in an authoritative reference source (Académie...). But obviously the places selling brushes with this term mean something by it.

FPC Aug 10, 2022:

Mpoma I agree with your last comment, except with the idea the expression is improperly used on those websites. I think you're right that it's probably often repeated without fully understanding it, as I've verified by calling a few DIY shops, none of which came with a convincing explanation. However when it's used with proper understanding I think it can refer to either head or brush. I wouldn't try and unpick the phrase. As you said, 'sur' may serve different functions, and I'm not sure they're all formally approved by the Académie

Mpoma Aug 10, 2022:

Alison's first link... ... I went back to that page... then I saw the actual line in the description: "Poils composés de 100% de soies naturelles blanches extra montées sur fleur".

If this is a correct usage, and it seems to be written with confidence, then certainly it *is* a distinctly idiomatic expression, but one which I find convincing ("sur" does occasionally shade into a meaning something like "with").

It also implies that most of the sites we see, where the expression is montée [singular] sur fleur, are essentially, er, wrong. No doubt an expression overheard in many an atelier without really knowing what the noun is.

Mpoma Aug 9, 2022:

@Alison I think you *may* have unearthed it with your first link. Re the 2nd, I'm personally not convinced that tombés sur fleur means the same thing as montée sur fleur.

My understanding has always been that the fleur is the tapered tip of a pinceau, and this is why a brosse cannot be involved: because a brosse in oil painting is always heavier and (as far as I've observed) does not have a tapered end.

Your first link suggests a different explanation. "Flagged" in a brush context seems to mean "with split ends", whether the splitting is done artificially or naturally, so the brush can load more paint. But this doesn't really fit too well with your "extrémité des poils naturels, plus fins et légers", where the prized qualities don't appear to include the fact of being split as such.

But also the French expression we're talking about here, montée sur fleur, just doesn't really seem to fit properly with your first link's explanation: in what sense is the brosse "montée sur fleur"? And why is fleur singular? At a stretch it might derive from some older expression. I think some corroboration is needed.

FPC Aug 9, 2022:

@ Mpoma I don't think it's incorrect, to the extent at least that there seems to be a certain variety in the use of terms. First, an individual "poil" or "soie" (hair or bristle, the French often distinguish according to the animal origin) can be and actually is tapered. I mean the individual hair/bristle. That's why "fleur" could mean for someone either the tip (toe) of the paintbrush or the softer end of a bristle.
As for masc vs fem: it's in the feminine or masculine, because again in French sometimes they use "pinceau" (masc) for a tool made with "poil" (hair form mustelidae, pony and similar naturally unflagged) and " brosse" (fem) for a paintbrush made with "soie" (hog bristle and similar, typically naturally flagged). So "montée" can be about the "brosse", for gender agreement.
If "montée" referred to the "virole" I supposed it could still mean the head of the paintbrush is made with the softer part of the hair. Or it simply could mean 'assembled'. In the last link I gave it's masculine because it refers to a "pinceau", but it could be used for either masc or fem in my opinion.
https://astucesdartiste.com/pinceaux-dart-les-fondamentaux/

FPC Aug 9, 2022:

@ Allison Yep, I had found those references, too. Indeed I keep coming back to this question and I'm convinced that's the meaning. Now apparently we all struggle to find a similar set English expression. I've more or less looked around websites and videos made by paintbrush makers but I don't seem to have encountered it.

Alison MacG Aug 7, 2022:

Two more refs Le saviez-vous ? La touffe d'un pinceau "montée sur fleur" signifie que l'on a sélectionné uniquement l'extrémité des poils naturels, plus fins et légers.
https://www.chausson.fr/quincaillerie/brosse-pouce-prestige-...

Tous nos pinceaux à rechampir, toutes nos brosses de pouce sont « tombés » sur fleur.
http://www.savy.fr/fr/pinceaux
FWIW, the English version of this site (quality not reliable) offers All our round pointed brushes heads are made with flagged bristle.

Mpoma Aug 6, 2022:

@FPC I (+ others I think) had seen that page. It is demonstrably incorrect, and even if it weren't it would explain nothing.

Sentence 1 there says that the fleur is the most slender part of le poil ("bristle"). But poil in the context of a paintbrush only makes sense with poils in the plural. In a paintbrush the bristles are not individually made slender: it is the head of the brush formed from the bristles which is made slender. This is called the "toe" in English and is the tip of the body of bristles. Please read earlier discussion entries.

In addition, it can't be brushed (see what I did there?) aside that le pinceau ("paintbrush") is masculine, but that the ST and every single website I have seen say montée, not monté.

Montée is either an adjective attached to a feminine noun (maybe virole, but another candidate might possibly be tête, but absolutely not brosse) or, alternatively, a noun, i.e. the operation of assembling the paintbrush. Whereas monté, at your link, cannot be either. Whoever wrote that has not said what the expression means, and couldn't even if they tried.

FPC Aug 5, 2022:

No translation yet but... This is what it means
https://cbonvin.fr/sites/www.dotapea.com/fleur.html ,
but honestly I don't have a time-honoured English translation. I've never found any particular reference to this in English documents about paintbrush manufacturing.
Anyhow from what I gather, in the expression "monté sur fleur" the fleur is not merely the tip or toe of the bristles but the entire apparent part of the animal hair that's used. My guess is any equivalent English expression should mean manufactured with the traditional technique consisting in inserting a tuft in a ferrule which holds it together, or made with natural bristles, or both. So basically most of the time it would be implied but some manufacturers prefer to state it for some models. This is all guesswork but I hope it helps.

Mpoma Aug 2, 2022:

@Emmanuella Oui, j'ai vu cette page et elle est très instructive, merci.

Mais je n'ai pas pu en tirer la signification de l'expression, ni en français ni en anglais. Pourriez-vous en suggérer une ?

Emmanuella Aug 2, 2022:

@ Mpoma - je pense que l'explication se trouve dans le 1er lien que j'ai posté.

Mpoma Aug 2, 2022:

Puzzling The phrase is used in many descriptions of paintbrushes. But it makes no sense. The fleur, tip of the bristles, is called the "toe" of a brush in English. The thing which is montée in this expression is the virole ("ferrule": the sort of metal sleeve thing which bunches up the bristles at their roots and then sort of guides them out). But if the ferrule is said to be "mounted" or "assembled" "on" the toe, this then makes no sense.

So it must be an idiomatic thing. On various websites it appears to be a sign of quality, a desirable characteristic. Perhaps it is in opposition to some less desirable method of assembling a paintbrush, e.g. maybe where the toe is trimmed and obtained *after* the ferrule and crimp (bit of the ferrule attaching to the handle) are arranged to clasp the bristles.

Or, perhaps more likely, it could mean that the ferrule is slid over the bristles (and toe) after they have been attached to the handle, rather than the bristles being stuffed into the ferrule when it has already been attached to the handle. But montée sur poils would then be a more accurate expression.

Best thing might be to phone a (serious) art shop in France.

Emmanuella Aug 2, 2022:

https://smart2000.pagesperso-orange.fr/pinceaux.htm
https://cowans.org/blogs/cowans-art-knowledge-know-how/92702...

Brian Cleveland (asker) Aug 2, 2022:

Phil, I think you're just splitting hairs! ;-)

Samuël, that reference is one of the same brushes I am translating, but on another website and I'm not sure it's that reliable so I'd take that with a pinch of salt.
Your fwiw does interest me though, seems a good description of what it actually is.... and ties in with what Phil mentioned. Having now searched a little for "flagged bristles" it seems it is a phrase, but not one I've even seen when I've bought my paint brushes!

Thank you gentlemen, you've been most helpful.

Emmanuella Aug 2, 2022:

@ Phil - je ne peins pas mais je connais le terme 'fleur' dans ce domaine, donc pourquoi ce jugement négatif?

philgoddard Aug 2, 2022:

It could be "with flagged bristles". See the opening sentence here:
http://patents.google.com/patent/US2812530A/en
Trouble is, even if this is the correct term, people won't understand it.

Samuël Buysschaert Aug 2, 2022:

Compléments "Fleur: Extrémité la plus effilée et la plus légère d'un poil (sur fleur : pinceau monté sur sa fleur)."

Fabrication:
https://www.profartspla.info/images/brochure_pinceaux.pdf

//
Can't find more occurrence other than these below, but it is referred as:

"Mounted on flag"
https://www.outilexpert.com/en/products/brushes/chalimont-ex...

"Flag: The most tapered and the lightest end of a
hair, bristle, or fibre ("on flag": paintbrush assembled on its flag)"
https://www.abemus.fr/CatalogueRaphael2006PROTECT.pdf
https://gralux.com.pl/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/RAPHAEL_X10...

Can't confirm if that is the proper term.

Samuël Buysschaert Aug 2, 2022:

Fwiw Not much but here some information that could help people get some ideas:



"Le montage sur fleur : L’extrémité de la soie est conservée, ce qui permet un meilleur lissage. La fleur est une fourche naturelle sur la soie ou fleurée artificiellement sur les synthétiques."
" Pinceau monté "sur fleur" : la virole est placée sur la fleur du poil."
"monté sur fleur : regrouper les poils en les ajustant à partir de la fleur."

"Chaque forme de pinceau, carrée, pointue, biseautée (filet sifflet), bombée, réservoir à mèche, etc... est donc un assemblage de poils dont l'extrémité est "moulée" pour en préserver la fleur. Les touffes de poils sont insérées dans des petits moules en laiton à fond épais, fleur vers le bas. Les moules sont ensuite frappés sur un marbre pour assurer une bonne mise en place de la fleur dans celui-ci. Une fois le poil bien en position dans le moule, on met un lien en fil de lin. L'ensemble ainsi formé s'appelle une "mèche"."

https://eshop.wurth.fr/Categories-produits/Pinceaux-a-peintu...
https://www.geant-beaux-arts.fr/marques/isabey/