| Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3 4] | How much is a good rate? (US direct client) Автор темы: Ali Alsaqqa
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Abba Storgen (X)
США
Local time: 21:45
греческий (новогреческий) => английский
+ ...
1. Contrary to Eleftherios' arguments, people in poor countries can and do get by on much less than those from "richer" countries.
Because they have less things. If all my neighbords have bicycles, there's no reason for me to get a car. I have lived in 3 different countries, 2 continents, and four different States in the U.S. I can move to Arkansas tomorrow with two laptops, live on $1,300 per month (includes all bills and rent), in an actual house (not an apartment), thus be... See more 1. Contrary to Eleftherios' arguments, people in poor countries can and do get by on much less than those from "richer" countries.
Because they have less things. If all my neighbords have bicycles, there's no reason for me to get a car. I have lived in 3 different countries, 2 continents, and four different States in the U.S. I can move to Arkansas tomorrow with two laptops, live on $1,300 per month (includes all bills and rent), in an actual house (not an apartment), thus being able to charge less.
But is that my goal as a professional? To reduce my income every year?
I can also go live in a cave in Pakistan and eat whatever nature provides. Is that my goal?
If that's the goal, or the situation people want to maintain, then why do most large translation agencies move to downtown areas of the most expensive cities in the world? How can they afford that?
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2. However I don't think that "I can get by with less" is a good reason for accepting less than the standard rate.
Correct. As a matter of fact, if my country is poor, then I should be asking MORE, in order to make it a richer country. Otherwise, poor countries will remain poor forever, because they simply don't ask more. The reason China is a richer country today is not because it has more (empty) houses. It's because the TOTAL VALUE (price tag) of these houses, and of each one individually, is hundreds of times higher than in the past.
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3. Regardless of my opinion the fact that they can get by with less remains unchanged.
Everybody can get by with less. If you could only see the amount of junk in an American home... They get these huge houses and then they have to fill them up with all sorts of stuff, completely useless. My friend's wife bought 12 flower vases because they were "on offer for a third of the price". I've never seen any flowers in their house. When I was in Oklahoma 5 years ago, I was fully supporting a family of three people with 2 cars (we were renting a house wih 1 acre land) for USD 1,320 per month on average. To do that in a village in Greece at the same time period you needed 2,000 Euros (double the money). Most places in America (except NY and CA) are still far cheaper than any place in Europe, for the BASIC NEEDS. When an American outside NY tells you that his living needs exceed 2,000 per month, you got to look what he's doing every day. Especially on e-commerce. Click and buy. Charge the card.
I have estimated that for a very healthy full diet that includes all kinds of food, I need approximately $5.5 per day in Philadelphia and $4.9 in Chicago or $4.0 in the SW States. Add 9 cents for two multivitamin pills and you' re super-healthy. Yes. But the reality is that most of the times I order pizza and other stuff, so it's basically my own fault for raising my own cost of living.
I can do pushups and squats and run around the block for free. But most people pay gym subsciptions of expensive equipment they keep in their basements unused (instead of earning 5 times the amount of money by using it to pay down their mortgage).
Then there's the location bias and the feeling of inferiority (inferiority complex) of the "others".
But if you live in China, for example, you can change your address at proz.com so that it shows "New York". Nobody checks and nobody cares. Then you can increase your rates. Problem solved.
[Edited at 2011-09-12 18:27 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand 
Китай
Local time: 10:45
китайский => английский
Eleftherios -
You do know what a market is, don't you?
I understand your arguments, but you seem to be overlooking the fundamental nature of our work: we compete with other translators for a limited supply of work. We compete in two main areas: price and quality.
If Translator A lives in New York and Translator B lives in Accra, and both translate at the same level of quality, then Translator B has an advantage, because their monthly bills are lower, and they are... See more Eleftherios -
You do know what a market is, don't you?
I understand your arguments, but you seem to be overlooking the fundamental nature of our work: we compete with other translators for a limited supply of work. We compete in two main areas: price and quality.
If Translator A lives in New York and Translator B lives in Accra, and both translate at the same level of quality, then Translator B has an advantage, because their monthly bills are lower, and they are generally willing to accept a lower standard of living, because everyone around them has a lower standard of living. Translator B will accept lower pay for the same job, and thus will win more contracts than Translator A.
I'm not saying this is good or right or what should happen. I'm saying this is basic market theory, and it works pretty well. On a gross level, what I've outlined above is pretty much exactly what *does* happen.
The fact that you don't like it or don't want to believe it doesn't change the fact that job flight to low pay countries is real. On Proz, I agree, we can and should work against it. But we all have to deal with it. ▲ Collapse
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Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
1. Contrary to Eleftherios' arguments, people in poor countries can and do get by on much less than those from "richer" countries.
Because they have less things. If all my neighbords have bicycles, there's no reason for me to get a car.
I don't get your basis for this statement. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that translators in Kenya/Pakistan/Uruguay own vehicles, live in houses, buy furniture, carry mobile phones, use computers and wear clothes just like everybody else.
But if you live in China, for example, you can change your address at proz.com so that it shows "New York". Nobody checks and nobody cares. Then you can increase your rates. Problem solved.
I believe translators living in China should be bold enough to charge exactly what they're worth, regardless of their location. "Why hello Mr. Smith, our budget for this translation is five thousa--- oh wait, you live in China? Here's $10, keep the change." should be a thing of the past, and that will only happen when translators stop telling themselves that "My country is poorer, so I should charge less for a service of identical quality."
[Edited at 2011-09-12 19:10 GMT]
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Phil Hand wrote:
If Translator A lives in New York and Translator B lives in Accra, and both translate at the same level of quality, then Translator B has an advantage, because their monthly bills are lower, and they are generally willing to accept a lower standard of living, because everyone around them has a lower standard of living. Translator B will accept lower pay for the same job, and thus will win more contracts than Translator A.
That's simply is nonsense. None is willing to accept a lower standard of living.
[Edited at 2011-09-13 09:10 GMT]
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Phil Hand wrote:
Translator B will accept lower pay for the same job, and thus will win more contracts than Translator A.
Correct. It's true that all other things being equal, a cheaper supplier is a better choice for the client. In fact it's a valid business strategy used in almost every industry today.
The problem I have, and what makes me believe Translator B is hurting himself and Translator A by doing this, is that such translators don't undersell themselves by a small amount but by something massive. They take a $0.15 job for $0.05 or less, where logic suggests $0.14 should be enough to win them the job.
Am I still on topic here? I'm beginning to lose track.
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
США
Local time: 21:45
греческий (новогреческий) => английский
+ ...
| We don't disagree... | Sep 13, 2011 |
Transafrique and the others: we do not disagree. The "bicycle" was just an example.
There are two points which have been overlooked, under the assumption that translators are logical creatures, or that a free market exists indeed:
"None is willing to accept a lower standard of living"
Actually they are. In my project management days, I saw, with my own eyes, more than a dozen examples in which the PM would offer 10 cents per word and the translator ... See more Transafrique and the others: we do not disagree. The "bicycle" was just an example.
There are two points which have been overlooked, under the assumption that translators are logical creatures, or that a free market exists indeed:
"None is willing to accept a lower standard of living"
Actually they are. In my project management days, I saw, with my own eyes, more than a dozen examples in which the PM would offer 10 cents per word and the translator would say something like "I can give it to you even cheaper than that". I'm talking about Greek translators of course. Their market logic revolves around their temporary enthousiasm. And just like Rubeus Hagrid in Happy Potter, they probably say to themselves afterwards "hmmm... I shouldn't have said that". Then they repeat. Saw the emails with my own eyes.
A job is at 12 cents, they can get it at 11, but they overbid lower to 5 or 6. Then they can't raise that amount... voluntary poverty for the "masses" (and First Class for our socialist leaders), is in the heart of modern Greek education, so no wonder... but anyway...
"I'm saying this is basic market theory, and it works pretty well"
More than half of European Economies are run by the governments and the unions of public and private sectors, and lobyists etc. that have a tremendous influence on salaries, contract work, and benefits. Consider also bailouts, special benefits and privileges per area, etc etc. There's no such thing in the West as a "free market". The "free market" exists only in the forums of proz.com.
If 80% of lawyers in Chicago charge $300 per hour, then this is NOT a "coicidence". It's a set rate after discussion between the members. And it serves them well. It doesn't matter if there's a 10% that charges much less. They are not enough to influence the market. And you can't really say 80% of professionals chose, by pure coincidence, the same exact rate per hour.
Almost the same throughout the United States and in some cases even worse. Entire cities, even capital cities (Harrisburg, PA) are either declaring or have already declared or are close to declaring bankruptcy because of unreasonably high union contract mandeted benefits and pensions.
Now, did you ever hear anyone saying "this year we are facing problems with cash because our translators are too expensive"?
Translators have no unions. Regardless of their number, each one of them is completely alone in the forest, without schedule, benefits, insurance, pension, voice and vote, and not even informed enough! And even if they meet each other accidentally in the woods, they don't even exchange valuable information that is critical for their survival...
Kind of like the migrant workers on corner streets waiting to be picked up by someone in a pick up truck every morning.
[Edited at 2011-09-13 01:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nicole Schnell
США
Local time: 19:45
английский => немецкий
+ ...
Памяти | Translator A and translator B | Sep 13, 2011 |
Phil Hand wrote:
Translator B will accept lower pay for the same job, and thus will win more contracts than Translator A.
This also means that Translator B has to work twice as much for the same income as Translator A. Which might leave cheap Translator B awfully frustrated.
| | | | Phil Hand
Китай
Local time: 10:45
китайский => английский
| So called free markets | Sep 13, 2011 |
Eleftherios said:
"There's no such thing in the West as a "free market". The "free market" exists only in the forums of proz.com."
I completely agree with that. Free markets are not naturally-occurring phenomena, nor are they really free. Like you say, Proz.com constructs this market, and it is subject to all kinds of pressures.
But that doesn't mean that market theory is entirely wrong. It's a pretty core part of the way the world has developed over the last cent... See more Eleftherios said:
"There's no such thing in the West as a "free market". The "free market" exists only in the forums of proz.com."
I completely agree with that. Free markets are not naturally-occurring phenomena, nor are they really free. Like you say, Proz.com constructs this market, and it is subject to all kinds of pressures.
But that doesn't mean that market theory is entirely wrong. It's a pretty core part of the way the world has developed over the last century or so...
Nicole:
Yeah, that's true... so what? I don't get it, you do read newspapers, yeah? I'm not just making this stuff about outsourcing up! You remember how in the 90s all the US call centre jobs got outsourced to India? That was because Indian call operatives would accept lower wages. Now, all (well, a lot) manufacturing is done in China, because wages here are 1/10th of what they are in developed countries. Whether or not Indian call operatives or Chinese factory workers feel frustrated doesn't really come into it. The market wages in these countries are just much lower.
(Wages in China are heavily manipulated (depressed) by government intervention. It's not a natural thing. But it is a real thing.) ▲ Collapse
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Nicole Schnell
США
Local time: 19:45
английский => немецкий
+ ...
Памяти | Who would have guessed :-) | Sep 16, 2011 |
Phil Hand wrote:
Nicole:
Yeah, that's true... so what? I don't get it, you do read newspapers, yeah? I'm not just making this stuff about outsourcing up! You remember how in the 90s all the US call centre jobs got outsourced to India? That was because Indian call operatives would accept lower wages. Now, all (well, a lot) manufacturing is done in China, because wages here are 1/10th of what they are in developed countries. Whether or not Indian call operatives or Chinese factory workers feel frustrated doesn't really come into it. The market wages in these countries are just much lower.
(Wages in China are heavily manipulated (depressed) by government intervention. It's not a natural thing. But it is a real thing.)
Phil, even Americans read newspapers. They also don't have the memory span of a goldfish. Especially not the translators who are specializing in economics and marketing. 
Those, however, are the very same people who are tired of being "offered" the most ridiculous rates on earth just because some colleagues somewhere else consider it a given.
| | | | Laureana Pavon
Уругвай
Local time: 23:45
Член ProZ.com c 2007
английский => испанский
+ ...
МОДЕРАТОР
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
I don't get your basis for this statement. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that translators in Kenya/Pakistan/Uruguay own vehicles, live in houses, buy furniture, carry mobile phones, use computers and wear clothes just like everybody else.
Very interesting discussion.
I just want to point out that Uruguay is not a cheap place to live. You may have us confused with Argentina.
[Edited at 2011-09-17 23:54 GMT]
| | | | Michael Beijer
Великобритания
Local time: 03:45
Член ProZ.com c 2009
голландский => английский
+ ...
My computer and network maintenance guy charges $75.00
Simple DTP-work (nothing creative) by graphic designers starts at $60.00
Copy shops charge an hourly rate of $75.00 for typesetting your business card
A carpet cleaner charges $75.00 and up
A freelance copywriter will not work for less than $100.00
Amen!
Michael
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